doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com An over and under that shoots like a side by side

I've pulled damaged top ribs off more than one Fox that are nearing centenary status. No significant rust, certainly not enough to cause any pitting. Not saying all doubleguns are like that. Art may well be right, and I may be wrong .......maybe we just haven't waited long enough, eh? Maybe it'll just take another hundred years or so to prove his prediction.

You make it sound like every double gun with side ribs and bottom ribs are dying of cancer and rusting through to the bores, and we'd be better off not shooting them at all. Meanwhile, the rest of the double gunning world goes about business as usual, shooting these doomed double barrels.

Wonder if Art lumps all doubles with ribs into the same category. Even those with brazed on ribs, I suppose.

The sky is not falling, SL.

The sky is not falling.... till it does when an unlucky owner is faced with the cost of relaying ribs. God help him if it is a best gun.

What is the use of the side ribs on OUs and the bottom rib on SXS? It is not structural, gunmakers themselves often state that the ribs do not hold barrels together. They provide no function in pointing.

Their rust trapping potential is undeniable and often seen in photographs.

Darne did away with the bottom rib on some models, Martin did away with both bottom and top ribs. Numerous OUs have no side ribs with no loss in performance.

Rather than side and bottom ribs it might be a better idea to exploit the weight savings and keep some barrel wall thickness that is way more useful.

As for brazed on ribs, there the whole barrel assembly is brought to 650 degrees centigrade just to stick on those bits of rib, it is thermal overkill, done to avoid loose ribs in low grade guns.

Art has decades of experience and knows his audience well---just view his videos on Youtube and you will see that he one of the most expert gunsmiths of Brownings in the world. His reputation is stellar.

So with that in mind I ask myself who was his audience when he said that? Was it a covey of amateur gun enthusiast or maybe a gun writer who had not practical experience at the gunsmith's bench? If I had been there (I am also an old guy like Art) I would have likely asked " Well, Art is that what I can expect as to the life of ribs on my shotgun barrels that you re-layed for me in your shop?" He would have grinned and said "no, my re-layed ribs last forever."

This is exactly what happens on 80% of shotguns --the ribs last for a lifetime of shooting.

I remember a long discussion with the late Jack Rowe of Birmingham gun trade, and the discussion of how barrels and ribs have to be properly tinned with acid flux and solder (preferable 95-100% Tin) and then the barrels and ribs washed in hot water and a neutralizer to remove 100% of the traces of acid--then then ribs are re-layed with rosin and solder. I also remember him talking about those gunmakers and gunsmiths who did not remove the acid completely which in true Jack Rowe form he called them " Shitty Gunmakers".

The Perazzi that prompted this discussion is certainly nice. However, OU's will benefit from a ventilated rib if they are intended for high-volume shooting. The ventilated rib will dissipate the heat and associated heatwave visual distortions that appear above the barrel when the barrels get hot. I have an OU with a solid top rib that will develop heatwave distortions during a quick round of skeet. No issues with similar guns using ventilated ribs. So, yes, at least ventilated ribs serve a purpose. Brister and others have also written about the benefit of top ribs.

Bushveld, Reading your description of the proper laying of ribs leads to the thought "why do all this for bits that provide no functional benefit".


The top rib has a function, as Bluestem notes. Plus, top ribs do not provide hidden rust places and if they come loose there is only one rib to relay, in a gun that has no side ribs that is. As for the handling gains, they could be had, in a Boss or other OU, by omitting the side ribs and keeping the top rib. That would merit the title ribless more than the removal of the top rib alone.

I wish I could post comments made by gunsmiths when they relay ribs, they involve the mother and sisters of the guy who invented ribs, in English, Italian and Spanish. The comments are as inventive as the contraptions gunsmiths make to hold ribs while soldering.

A question that maybe you would do well to spend more time considering. The best gunmakers in the world devised the bottom, and side ribs for S X Ss and O/Us. A very, very small number of guns without those ribs were made to try to create a niche market, in hopes the creators could convince the world that everyone else was wrong. Since the world hasn't beaten a path to their doors, doesn't that raise a red flag for you? It does me. They haven't built a better mousetrap.

On the same line of thought, why hasn't wood been replaced with synthetics on ALL new guns built? Wood is arcane, unstable, it shrinks, it cracks, it breaks. I dare say there is at least as big a business in the gun repair trade restocking old doubleguns as there is relaying their ribs. Why hasn't some stable, lightweight, material replaced wood? Because wood looks right, it has beauty. Same thing with ribs on shotguns. Looking at a ribless shotgun leaves me feeling sorry for it, kinda like a castrated boydog.

Anyway, interesting discussion, and my opinion is just that, mine alone and carries no more weight than anyone else's. Thanks for your thoughts, but as I said earlier ........... count me unconvinced.

It was an aesthetics thing all along. The gap between the barrels is visually bothersome. It can be dealt with without resorting to the process described by Bushveld above.

But aesthetics does have the upper hand. I plead guilty, I put a high grade walnut stock and forend on a Baikal single barrel.

I can understand your disappointment in not have the knowledge and ability to post comments by gunsmiths. It takes a long time to learn the trade and in this regard and for example it took me considerable time to learn how to make barrel sets and several years to learn the basics of engraving. But do not despair. Not everyone has the technical ability and mechanical skills to be a gunsmith and that is OK, the same person may have the artistic talent to be an outstanding engraver. I do not have this artistic ability and will only ever be at best a craftsman engraver. I have found that to my way of thinking it is more important for me to understand my inabilities and focus on reinforcing them than otherwise. However, there is one ability that I have that has helped me greatly it is that I know that I do not know what I do not know.

As to the discussion of whether guns should have ribs, I have little to no interest in that. My interest lies in proper making and installation of barrel ribs. For example few gunsmiths understand that the smaller the gap between the rib and barrel in its fitting and soldering the greater the strength. It seems counter intuitive that a .001" gap between the barrel and the rib is greatly stronger after soldering than a .003"-.004" gap, but it is.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

'The Master said, Yu, shall I teach you what knowledge is? When you know a thing, to recognize that you know it, and when you do not know a thing, to recognize that you do not know it. That is knowledge."
Confucius, 551-479 BC, from Analects

i know very little, but i would ask for opinions regarding French guns (such as the Manufrance Ideal) which utilize an I beam type rib, that is one piece and centrally located between the tubes. this seems inherently superior, as is claimed by MF. it is held in "tension" between the tubes and it's monolithic nature would seem to be much less likely to permit separation than the usual two piece rib, which is fundamentally wedged between the diverging tube radius, and depends entirely upon precise fitting and careful soldiering skills.

best regards,
tom

Michael McIntosh has a chapter entitled "Lore: Barrel Flip" in his book More Shotguns and Shooting. In it he talks about how the dynamic forces of the shot create barrel flexing and harmonic vibration, which is influenced by barrel orientation (i.e. OU vs SxS) and barrel length (long barrels flex more than short barrels and have a longer degree of arc from the chamber). He notes that on a SxS the center of the shot swarm will angle low right from the start and the distance will grow "geometrically with distance." This can be mitigated by a properly fitted stock. OU's are more rigid vertically and "they aren't as affected by harmonic vibration." Thus, according to MM's chapter (with a reference to Burrard), factors that influences the amount of barrel flex and harmonic vibration will also influence the the amount of barrel flip. Ribs on a SxS certainly contribute to the overall rigidity of the barrel assembly, which will influence barrel flip and the associated point of impact.