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I'm going to gently disagree with FAB about the date of the gun. I simply cannot believe that a 1910 Manufrance gun would be proofed for PJ. Thus, I'll stick to 1896-1900 timeframe for the gun. If another gun after 1900 proofed for PJ can be found, will reconsider.

Je vais gentiment être en désaccord avec FAB sur la date de l'arme. Je ne peux tout simplement pas croire qu'un fusil de Manufrance de 1910 serait à l'épreuve pour PJ. Ainsi, je m'en tiendrai à la période de 1896-1900 pour l'arme.

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What about all that charge / load data? When did they start scratching all that on there? Did they follow suit with the Belgians trying to shore up their case for competition with the Germans for semi-smokeless powder? There was a narrow window when similar data was scratched on Belgian tubes.

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What might be the correct French term for this type top rib?


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Any idea how to interpret / translate / decipher the load data characters?

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
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What might be the correct French term for this type top rib?


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Salut ellenbr

Sur les vieux catalogues, on y lit "bande prolongée à tenon s'encastrant dans la bascule".

Le vendeur de cet Idéal de 1907, éprouvé à la poudre J, l'appelle tête d'aspic.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
-- Crown over PJ - semi-smokeless (1896)?
-- Yet chambered in mm?

I'm wondering if this gun is 1885-1889?
..or, if Manufrance ignored the changeover to c.m. in 1889?
..or, if the gun were reproofed in 1896?
..or, if PJ was used earlier?
..or. with the "6" and "5" that far apart, maybe the decimal didn't print?

The 32 bore looks vaguely similar to this gun (I didn't keep all the photos unfortunately):

3). 1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html
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- - - - -Discussion of PJ semi-smokeless powder - - - - - - -

(Per Larry: "Engelhardt's original article shows the PM proofmark and says: "For barrels proved with smokeless R and M powders, adopted May 14, 1898. But it does not show a PR proofmark. He also shows only the PJ proofmark when referring to both J and S powders, which were adopted together on March 30, 1896.").

And: (But interesting in going back to Journee--which I don't do as often as I should--I found that there are 4 different varieties of J. In addition to just plain old J (or J-0--I can't do the sub-numbers), there are also J1, 2, and 3. According to Journee's chart, while they all have the same % of nitrocellulose, they differ in the number of grains per gram. T has the highest % of nitrocellulose: 98%, compared to 83% for the J's, 71% for M, and 65% for S.)


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Salut Argo,

Le poinçon F couronné nous indique que le fusil a été éprouvé à la poudre noire après 1896.

Je n'ai toujours pas eu de retour du Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne. Je vais faire une relance, mais je n'ai pas beaucoup l'espoir d'avoir une réponse.

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Thanks for three things FAB:
-- The PJ proof mark on a 1907 Ideal. I would never have thought one could find PJ that late. I wonder if the numbers behind PJ might be the J powder number variant identified by Journee? And I think all of us are surprised.
-- The French phrase for "sunken rib" which will be added to our vocabulary.
-- And the "crown over F" black powder proof mark. I have been unable to find a date for it. There must be a more complete Saint-Etienne proof mark list someplace. So that gun is a Manufrance with a chamber measurement in mm with with an 1896 proof mark. This does call into question the 1889-1912 postulation we made about chamber lengths only in cm.

I believe there is someone who is an expert on Saint-Etienne gun production. I will try to have my in-laws make some inqueries.

- - - - - - - -translation- - - - -

Merci pour trois choses FAB:
-- Le PJ poinçon sur un 1907 Ideal. Je n'aurais jamais pensé qu'on pourrait trouver PJ aussi tard. Je me demande si les chiffres derrière PJ pourraient être la variante du nombre de poudre J identifiée par Journee? Et je pense que nous sommes tous surpris.
-- L'expression française pour "sunken rib" qui sera ajoutée à notre vocabulaire.
-- Et, le poinçon F couronné pour la poudre noire. Je n'ai pas pu trouver une date pour "F". Il doit y avoir quelque part une liste d'épreuves plus complète de Saint-Etienne. Donc ce fusil de chasse est un Manufrance avec une mesure de chambre en mm avec un poinçon de 1896. cela remet en cause la postulation de 1889-1912 que nous avons faite sur les longueurs de chambre uniquement en cm.

Je crois qu'il y a quelqu'un qui est un expert de la fabrication d'armes à Saint-Etienne. Je vais essayer de demander à ma belle-famille de me renseigner.

Last edited by Argo44; 01/13/22 02:10 PM.

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Absolument Argo. Le fusil a été éprouvé avec 4,20 grammes de poudre J2 et 30 grammes de plomb.

Les PS et PJ datent de 1896.
Les PM et PR datent de 1898.
La PT date de 1900.
Le poinçon F couronné date de 1898.

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Translation:
Absolutely. The gun was proofed with 4.20 grams of J2 powder and 30 grams of lead.

PS and PJ date from 1896
PM and PR date from 1898
PT dates fron 1900
The Crowned F stamp (black powder) dates from 1898.


Ted and Larry....in reference to the discussion you had in the "Dating Early French Shotguns" line re "R" powder and whether there were variants of "J" proofs, p. 7&8....
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=8
Looks like the scales come down on Larry's side at this time re variants of J. Wildcattle was adamant there was no "R" powder. Journee doesn't mention "R" per Larry.

Whatever, I would like to know what was the proof mark for black powder before the "Crowned F."

Last edited by Argo44; 01/15/22 04:51 AM.

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