doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Helice 20ga

Today I went to a gun store about 40 miles away. They've had a "French" 20ga SxS up high on the wall for a long time. Only marking I could see on the outside was Helice on the top lever. Shorter barrels than my Robust, I didn't measure them. Bead was there didn't appear to be cut down barrels. Bore condition was very good. Unfortunately it was loose in the horizontal lockup. No cracks in the wood, checkering had been sanded away. Scant pistol grip, not sure if it would be a POW. Metal finish was odd - a very Matt black. $599 but they would make me a deal! Just too far gone I guess, im not qualified for a project. My questions:
1. those prick marks on the flats an attempt to tighten lockup?
2. definitely 65mm since nothing is marked?
3. Shooting stars? Double quality mark?

https://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

I feel that the prick marks are covering up the 65

Please check for gauge and chamber length

Mike

p.s. 16 gauge reamed out to 2 3/4" perhaps ??

p.s.s. see the 70 markings on the barrel flats?

Bore in MM is 17.0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(firearms)

Someone has attempted to defile the 65mm chamber markings, but, they are still visible. They also did a piss poor job of marking it 70, for 2 3/4” chambers. I’m sure they have been let out. Not typically a problem on a French gun. I see no poor attempts at action tightening in the photos.
The gun is a 16, not a 20, as witnessed by the 17.0mm stamps of the barrels. The Shooting Stars are likely a grade marking of some sort, not one I am familiar with. It was proofed in a finished state with French smokeless powder T, post 1900. It was double proofed, a higher level than single proof. Both are stout levels of proof. Acier Special just means special steel, not anything significant from where we are today, in steel making.
I can’t make out any of the other marks, but, it likely doesn’t matter. If I needed a 16 beater, I might try to take up the slack in the action with a .004 brass shim on the hook, you could try a piece of typing paper, and see if it helped, at the gun shop, but, it would have to be cheap if I was going to do that.

Best,
Ted

The "scant pistol grip" is quite common on French sxs. About as close as you can come to a straight grip. Just a hint of a round knob.

i agree that the pin punches were used to obscure the 65 stamping...but i would guess the 6 & 5 were close enough together to have been "65" rather than the earlier "6.5" stamping. that would place the gun as post 1912 (?). i agree with ted, that the shooting stars are an in-house quality stamp - but have never seen them before either. i think that i see PT stampings under both chambers (above the crossed lightening bolts - which signify proof in finished state). we don't have a photo of the water table...it should confirm whether PT or T powder was used for proof....i also think the use of T powder would likely have occurred during the earlier "6.5 cm" era.

this gun was proved in the Saint-Etienne house....noted by the dual stamps on each tube forward of the flats and marked stetienne. from memory, i think the two stamps indicated "superior proof" prior to ww2....a step above "normal proof" - but not "double proof"....if i'm correct, three stamps were indication of "double proof".

the other marks on the tubes are difficult to make out, and might shed a bit more light....MM i've seen before, but i am distant from my reference materials, and working from an old gray headed memory.

best regards,

tom