doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com More help with UK proof marks

Going through the Reilly database, I'm continually finding things I don't understand and didn't bother to look at when writing the history. Now as it gets ready for publication, there are questions.

This is Reilly SN 30394, number one of a pair of 12 gauge shotguns. It was originally proofed in London and would have been numbered in 1889. Yet it still has "not for ball," which was discontinued in 1887. There are a number of these dichotomies in Reilly guns from late 1880's-late 1890's. Terry Lubzinski’s side lever is 303?? numbered also in 1889 but still with "not for ball." I've speculated that Reilly numbered his ready-made off-the-shelf guns when sold not when made so it may have sat on the shelf for a couple of years or he had the barrels in stock ready for an order but who knows.

But here's the question. The gun apparently was reproofed in 2004. It mentions "Lined" which would seem to indicate it was sleeved. Yet all the original proof marks, serial numbers, etc. are there (except on the barrel flats?). What exactly does "Lined" mean? And, the reproof was 2004? But Diggory's chart has the stamps changing in 2005?? (The proof marks look more like the 1989-2005 standard except for "Lined")

Teague lined with full length barrel liners.

Ah. Do they work - Teague liners that is? I've heard of the process but never seen it. It doesn't seem to be done much these days but somehow makes sense. Still doesn't quite explain the 2004 reproof and the 2005 "Lined" stamp.

Lining was a great idea but it failed somewhere in the process I don't remember if it was voids in between the liner and the original barrel. to bad it failed because it would keep the original Damascus pattern.

I understand that the process did not restore the original handling qualities of the gun, and it proved impossible to repair minor dents or bulges.

A great shame that it did not work as well as had been hoped.

The “LINED” mark is now also used on rifles that have had new rifled tubes inserted such as .410’s converted back to Rook rifles.

Interesting that "sleeved" is NOT included in the 1989-2005 proofmarks. I wonder if the Brits are now using "lined" to include guns sleeved with the traditional process as well as the Teague liners, which are no longer being used. But "sleeved" was certainly among the proofmarks prior to 2005.

I was the US representative for the Teague lining process. The vast majority of the time things worked out fine and the clients were happy. I had one failed attempt during my tenor sending guns over on a Parker that had been struck heavily along the top rib, the client was refunded his payment and the tubes were still suitable for sleeving. My personal feeling is that finances were the real killer. Overhead was huge getting the guns to the UK and back and the market will only bare so much for old guns with bad tubes. The idea has plenty of merit but making a business out it is another matter.

"Unfortunately, there were more fundamental flaws in the process with commensurate effects on longevity. Once lined, the barrels cannot be heated because it would melt the adhesive. Therefore, loose ribs or loops cannot not be repaired. Sometimes, the liners twist in the barrels. Other complaints included a rivveling effect developing in the outer skin. This has been attributed to the cooling and heating of the barrels during use and the different rates of expansion and contraction at molecular level of the three sandwiched components – the liner, the original barrel steel and the thin gap filled with adhesive."

"Barrel makers started reporting that dented barrels which had been lined were impossible to repair. The hard lining and the soft outer skin reacted differently to dent raising techniques and dents could not be raised acceptably. The result was often scrapped barrels."

Anyone who has shot a tube O/U know tubes can change the gun feel. But when you have a set of barrels which can not have dents repaired and may have rivveling or ribs impossible to relay it becomes a one way operation. It works until it does not work. Then you have a set of barrels you may not even be able to sleeve.

SLEEVED is still in use. Diggory uses examples that would be found on an individual gun so does not include all possible combinations.