doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Powder Strength & Proof Pressures

Despite unsuccessfully searching for Pete Mikalajunas' thread from long ago, I think I've figured out the French l’Administration des Poudres et Salpêtres sporting powder strengths
Semi-smokeless Poudre J - 15.8 grains/dram = 47.4 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Semi-smokeless Poudre M - 12.76 grains/dram = 38.3 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Poudre T Pyroxylée Sans Fumé (introduced in 1899) - 11.5 grains/dram = 34.5 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.

For comparison

42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“E.C.” No. 1
“Schultze”
DuPont Bulk (40 gr.)
Curtis & Harvey “Amberite” (40 gr. on introduction - later 42 gr.)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd “Cannonite Shot-gun”
Smokeless Powder Co. “S.S.” (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. “Cooppal’s No. 1”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 1”
United States Smokeless Powder Co. “Gold Dust”
Dynamit Nobel’s Troisdorf Powder Co. “Troisdorf” (41.5 grains)
American Wood Powder
“J.B.” Powder

36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
New DuPont Bulk (37 grains)
Laflin & Rand Bulk (37 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. “Blue Ribbon” (37 grains)
“E.C.” No. 2 (Improved)
“New Schultze”

33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” (introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (1903)
Red Star (New Explosives Co., Stowmarket)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 2”
Nobel’s Explosive Co. “Empire”
“Cooppal’s No. 2” (30 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.)

French proof pressures follow

https://books.google.com/books?id=_IVMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA933&lpg
Charges yielding equal velocities; ounce not specified
Nobel's Ballistite 1.8 gram = (about) 28 grains = 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. with pressure 400 kg/cm2 = 5,689 psi + 10 - 14%
Mullerite (No. 2) 2.3 gram = 35.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. with pressure 550 kg/cm2 = 7,823 psi
Poudre T 2.5 gram = 38.6 grains = 3 1/3 Dr. Eq. with pressure 600 kg/cm2 = 8,534 psi

That Ballistite pressure is highly suspect

From the 1928 edition of “Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe, ballistic engineer of the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
12g 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Eq. + 10 - 14%
DuPont Bulk smokeless - 11,700 psi
Schultze Bulk smokeless - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite Dense smokeless - 12,600 psi
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi

Field, November 26, 1892
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA295
Add 10 -14% to the pressures





English
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA296

Found a relevant thread
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172878&page=3

The French equivalent to Nitro is "Poudre Pyroxylée".

The 1900 Manufacture Française d'Armes de St Etienne listed J, S, R, M, & T powders



Poudre J and Poudre S were both used as proof powders from 1896-1914.
Poudre M 1898-1914.
Smokeless Poudre T was used by the Proof House starting in 1900, and was the only powder used for Nitro proof post-1914.
There was also a Poudre T Bis (two)
https://books.google.com/books?id=dIdBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA87

Courtesy of JayCee
1920 levels of Preliminary Proof for finished and joined barrels:



12g
-First proof: 11 grams of BPnº2 and 70 grams of nº8 shot for 941 kg/cm2 = 13,384 psi
-Finished barrels: 10 grams BPnº2 and 60 grams of nº8 shot for 791 kg/cm2 = 11,250 psi
-Superior proof: 14.5 grams BPnº2 and 75 grams of nº8 shot for 1133 kg/cm2 = 16,115 psi
-Double proof: 20 grams BPnº2 and 120 grams of nº8 shot for 1441 kg/cm2 = 20,500 psi
-Triple proof: 30 grams BPnº2 and 180 grams of nº8 shot for 1726 kg/cm2 = 24,550 psi
The BPnº2 is called in French "Poudre Noire Forte Nº2.

These numbers are different; from https://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html
14,223 psi = 1000 Kg/mm2 Provisional Proof
16,356 psi = 1150 Kg/mm2 Reinforced Proof
17,779 psi = 1250 Kg/mm2 Double Proof



and https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609519&page=8

First horsefly in the yogurt is there was more than one type of powder that was referred to as powder J. Second, the only truly smokeless French proof powder is powder T.
I was told on more than one occasion that, initially, the proof house had difficulty achieving proof pressure with powder T. This had not been a problem with powder S. Guns were proofed with either powder for a few years after 1900.

The laws of proof were updated in 1923. The old symbol for French triple proof, the odd marking with 4 crossed sheaths of wheat, went away, and was replaced with the 3 crossed sheaths marking. There were other significant changes as well. French proof was always high enough that I, personally, didn’t contemplate it too much from a “safe to use” aspect, as I did on my old English guns.
English guns are gone. French guns eat what I feed them, with my shoulder being the weak link, as is some consideration for old wood.


Best,
Ted

This is one of the charts from the 1900 catalog listing the Poudre J loads; which I believe to be 15.8 grains/dram equivalent



12 gauge 3.5 grams = 54 grains = 3.42 Dr. Eq. to 3.8 grams = 58.6 grains = 3.71 Dr. Eq. with 36 grams shot = 1 1/4 oz. - boomer loads
16 gauge 2.5 grams = 38.6 grains = 2.44 Dr. Eq. to 2.8 grams = 43.2 grains = 2.73 Dr. Eq. with 30 grams = 1 oz.
20 gauge 2 grams = 30.9 grains = 2 Dr. Eq. to 2.25 grams = 34.7 grains = 2.2 Dr. Eq. with 26 grams = .92 oz.

Standard charges



Poudre T I believe is 11.5 grains/dram equivalent

12 gauge 2.4 gram = 37 grain = 3.22 Dr. Eq. to 2.6 grams = 40 grains = 3.48 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz shot
16 gauge 1.8 gram = 28 grain = 2.43 Dr. Eq. to 2.6 gram = 31 grains = 2.7 Dr. Eq. with 1 oz. shot
20 gauge 1.4 gram = 21.6 grains = 1.88 Dr. Eq. to 1.6 gram = 24.7 grains = 2.15 Dr. Eq. with .92 oz. shot

The chart makes note of three versions of powder J. J0 is noted for shooting ball type slugs, J1 for 12 gauge guns, and J2for the 16s, 20s, 24s, and whatever else.

The versions of J were different powders. But, if you knew the gun was proofed with any version of powder J, you knew what loads to use. At least, back when this data was current.

Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted.
If the 12g Poudre J1 was 16.6 grains/dram the 54 grain load would be 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. and 58.6 grain load 3 1/2 Dr. Eq.

BUT Poudre J was semi-smokeless and may require more grains for Dram Equivalence, with pressures lower than Bulk Smokeless

For Poudres Francaises See Verney-Carron catalogue of 1914-1915, Pages 24 ff:

https://www.calameo.com/books/0054478584946e91a2418

W-heil,
Wolfgang

See this line addressed by FAB500 including photos of smoke produced by each powder:

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609519

See the translations of the articles posted by FAB which go into much of this.