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Joined: Mar 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,080 Likes: 466 |
The British eventually approved a lighter proof for 2" 12's. I believe that was about the same time that they changed from the 1925 proof rules to the 1954 proof rules. (The "tons" rules.) Found the reference. Here it is, from Vic Venters' book "Gun Craft", from former Birmingham proofmaster Roger Lees: "In general, it may be said that under the new rules of proof (reference to 1954 rules) no arm will receive a more severe proof than hitherto. Some, such as the 12 bore 2 inch and 4 and 8 bore guns, will now receive a less severe proof than they received heretofore."
More recently, when Arrieta made some 2" 12's, those guns were given a heavier proof than British 2" 12s. The guns themselves were also heavier, weighing as much as some light British 2 1/2" 12's. Larry, rules were relaxed before 1954 whether by official act or by a wink and a nod. Some 2" 12 gauge guns from the 1930s were proofed a 3/4 oz. and my two guns from the late 1930s were proofed at 7/8 oz. Gil
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,702 Likes: 405
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,702 Likes: 405 |
My 1936 Hellis 2" is proofed for 7/8oz. but the guy I got it from gave me a bunch of RST's that are 15/16oz. So far so good.... Those of you that have one, please feel free to post lots of pictures of them. I don't get tired of looking at nice shotguns. I doubt anyone else does.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/qclHjMQ.jpg)
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 474
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 474 |
It took Grafs two plus years to sell the “popular powders” they bought from Noble(vectan). No doubt they could sell more right now but once the current shortages pass they would be stuck with them for a prolonged time. I tried two different numbers and it worked well. Not magical, but loaded fine. The only loading information I have ever seen in the US has been for 2 3/4” shells. Nothing 2 1/2” or 2”. It loads and burns about the same as American Select. Unfortunately we all know how difficult finding Alliant powders can be. A large wholesaler near me has gotten exactly one moderate size order in 18 month and has been told to not expect anything above very minor orders for a year. So buy what you can find has become the way of life for reloaders.
Last I heard a Grafs was not interested in importing anymore. Seems they were asked to import more choices than they wanted to stock and struggled to move even the more versatile numbers. I can’t say I blame them. Buying an entire line just to get the best sellers sounds like a way to not make money.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,083 Likes: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,083 Likes: 35 |
My 1936 Hellis 2" is proofed for 7/8oz. but the guy I got it from gave me a bunch of RST's that are 15/16oz. So far so good.... Those of you that have one, please feel free to post lots of pictures of them. I don't get tired of looking at nice shotguns. I doubt anyone else does. I'm getting too old to do the picture hosting shuffle, here's a link to a file.. Chas. HellisHellis research was kind enough to provide the following... "Thank you for your enquiry for Hellis gun number 4135. I am happy to help. Gun number 4135 is described in their sales ledger as a 12 bore double barrelled A & D ejector with 26" barrels, 2" chambers and 2 triggers (rel ej 12 / 2" ). It was built and placed into stock on the 31st of October 1936 and sold in November of the same year to Wilson for £25. This model was named by the company as the Reliable Hoping this information is of some help to you, " And you're correct, great gun to carry for grouse/woodcock.
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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3 members like this:
Parabola, GLS, BrentD, Prof |
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,702 Likes: 405
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,702 Likes: 405 |
Rob,
That's a really nice gun. I imagine it is as sweet to shoot as it is to look at.
Since Skimin & Wood seem to be responsible for so many of the 2" guns, among all Vintage 12x2" guns out there, what proportion of them are boxlock vs. sidelock? Other than a couple of off the charts Purdey's I think I have only seen boxlock guns so far. Are sidelocks super rare down here below the stratosphere?
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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1 member likes this:
Parabola |
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,080 Likes: 466
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,080 Likes: 466 |
My 1936 Hellis 2" is proofed for 7/8oz. but the guy I got it from gave me a bunch of RST's that are 15/16oz. So far so good.... Those of you that have one, please feel free to post lots of pictures of them. I don't get tired of looking at nice shotguns. I doubt anyone else does. I'm getting too old to do the picture hosting shuffle, here's a link to a file.. Chas. HellisHellis research was kind enough to provide the following... "Thank you for your enquiry for Hellis gun number 4135. I am happy to help. Gun number 4135 is described in their sales ledger as a 12 bore double barrelled A & D ejector with 26" barrels, 2" chambers and 2 triggers (rel ej 12 / 2" ). It was built and placed into stock on the 31st of October 1936 and sold in November of the same year to Wilson for £25. This model was named by the company as the Reliable Hoping this information is of some help to you, " And you're correct, great gun to carry for grouse/woodcock. Your gun appears to be a twin to my Hellis. (although mine is a BLNE, not a BLE like yours) Don't know if you know this but in your last photo the one of the barrel flats, there appears to be the initial "J.A." marked on a barrel. Joseph Asbury is regarded to be one of the best barrel makers of this era and made barrels for many gunmakers. My 12 ga. H. Atkin and 16 ga. Arthur Ilsley, as well as my Hellis, bear his mark. This was pointed out to me by our friend in the UK, Lagopus. Will you give me the Hellis contact info via PM so I can learn more about mine? Thanks. Gil
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1 member likes this:
Parabola |
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 903 Likes: 358
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 903 Likes: 358 |
Holland and Holland made side-lock 2” guns in both their full sidelock Royal self-opener and in their back lock Dominion gun in the 1930’s.
I think one (or both?) was branded the Centenary Gun.
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Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 306 Likes: 67
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 306 Likes: 67 |
Since this gun will obviously be used for birds, I would find 2-1/2" light 12 ga loads in 7/8 oz, reduce the shot to 3/4" and roll crimp them in 2". If they are around 6000 psi before, the 3/4 oz will be lower.
I have often thought of 2" guns, but I have several English doubles in 12 ga that weigh slightly less than 6#. I find it so much more convenient to shoot 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads in these with 2-1/2" hulls that the idea no longer appealing. What you are doing is shooting a normal English 16 ga upland gun, which is a little more trim and easier to carry in cover.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,083 Likes: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,083 Likes: 35 |
Your gun appears to be a twin to my Hellis. (although mine is a BLNE, not a BLE like yours) Don't know if you know this but in your last photo the one of the barrel flats, there appears to be the initial "J.A." marked on a barrel. Joseph Asbury is regarded to be one of the best barrel makers of this era and made barrels for many gunmakers. My 12 ga. H. Atkin and 16 ga. Arthur Ilsley, as well as my Hellis, bear his mark. This was pointed out to me by our friend in the UK, Lagopus. Will you give me the Hellis contact info via PM so I can learn more about mine? Thanks. Gil I have correspondence from a few years ago from a member here about Asbury.
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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1 member likes this:
GLS |
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