doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com IGCo's 1914 purchase of Union Firearms

1914 would precede WWI. I think most of the orders came in late 1915 or early 1916. Most assumed the war would be over quickly and were underestimating how much of everything they would need. I know Remington was ramping up in 1916.

But maybe they, IGCo, saw some equipment they thought was a good deal at the price. Don’t see how $3,000 would buy too much. Union was the continuation of two or three previous companies. I’m sure they were operating on a shoe string. But maybe they had just bought a couple Bridgeports.

I always wonder why, when things happen. Was it for a design they wanted, or to eliminate a competing maker or design. Ithaca had no pump gun design at this time. Perhaps they thought Union had a design they could tweak or improve on. Union did not. Maybe the model 60 held some interest. Maybe they just found a couple milling machines that they thought were worth $3,000. Had Ithaca built the Union pump gun they would have regretted it. I shoot mine but only with great effort and by 1914 Winchester had perfected the Model 12 and Model 97 and everybody would spend the next 20-100 years catching up.

I skimmed through the Union file this am. There is no documentation as to Ithaca's reason for the purchase but emphasis seems to be centered on the model 60 and Charles Wilson's patent. The detailed schedule of model 60 guns and parts and pieces makes no mention of any manufacturing equipment.
The purchase agreement of March 1914 does state ""...all the letters patent together with tools, jigs, fixtures and special appliances, etc....the exclusive right to manufacture and sell same throughout the world."
As I stated earlier, here is no recorded of any manufacturing equipment. Main interest was Wilson's patent and the Model 60.
A detailed chronicle study of the file may provide some additional info.

Thank you Walter. I have long suspected that the addition of a pump gun to their lineup, was the most likely reason for the acquisition. Winchester, Remington and the Browning designed Steven/Savage cornered the growing pump gun market and I think double makers knew their days were coming to an end. In the end, I suspect Ithaca decided the Model 60 was not a very good design, or one they thought they could redesign into a better design, at a profit. In the end, instead they waited until the patents ran out on what became the Model 37, which I think was an excellent decision.

I base my lack of love for the Model 60 based on my own examples of them and the guns they evolved from. I have several and several parts guns. Including the early model 24, 25, 27 and the later Model 60. The Model 60 is just an updated version of the Model 24/27. I have seen the Model 27 designation used on both the hammer and hammer-less pump guns, mine is hammer-less. Why on both, nobody knows. I suspect it was a mistake as they both share the same front end to attach the barrel and tube magazine to the receiver. Just got miss-stamped or they made guns up with parts on hand and they interchange.

The Model 60 is a striker firing system and cocking the striker takes great effort in the last 1/2" of the pumping cycle. It operates smoothly until then and then becomes a very difficult to cock gun. I have not measured it but it has to be in the 12-15 pound range of effort. There is no mechanical advantage and all the force require to compress the spring is ridiculous. To do it you have to take the gun off the shoulder and use both arms. Without mechanical advantage I think this was what killed this design because it was too difficult to operate. And I do not think you can redesign it to make it easier to operate.

Timeline: Name changes.
Colton Arms 1894 founded by George B Colton circa 1894

Union Fire Arms Company of Toledo incorporated in 1902
Name changed to Union Arms Company 1911
Union Arms Company was purchased by Toledo Fire Arms Company in 1913.
Toledo Arms Company (1913 Toledo was started in 1871) Bought and absorbed by Ithaca 1917.

I think the 1914 sale was only for the Model 60 rights. ""...all the letters patent together with tools, jigs, fixtures and special appliances, etc....the exclusive right to manufacture and sell same throughout the world.""? I think they bought only the pump gun design and patents and things needed to make them but none of the machinery which I suspect was kept by the Toledo Arms Company. Toledo did keep operating after 1914.

I also have seen a sale date of Toledo Arms, to Ithaca of 1916-1917, not the 1914 time frame. Perhaps the did buy the equipment during WWI to increase production of military contracts. That sale I was told was at auction, which is how I have been told Toledo Arms was disposed of. Maybe after I retire I will travel out to look at the records and see if there are any answers to be had. I have several city or Toledo information sources and should be able to cross check some of the physical locations at least and pin down years they were incorporated in Ohio. Nobody pays for papers after they close. The problem is I think they only rented space not owned physical property so tax records are not of much help. Somebody 110 years ago should have taken better notes.

Evolution of the pump gun designs: The Model 24 were a two trigger pump gun, with a front reversed trigger which could cock or de-cock the gun. Later redesigned as the 24A and then the Model 50 which had only one trigger. The Model 50 was made 1911-1913. The Model 60 I think was just coming into production in 1914 and ended there with this sale to Ithaca. I think the Model 60 is just an updated model 50 with some new patent improvements and protection. I ought to take one of each apart to compare but they are a pain the the Arizona to take apart and put back together. I'd rather do the same, on one of the Marlin Chinese bolt pump guns, with oven mitts on, in the dark. I think Ithaca dodged a bullet in not making these guns. I suspect they wanted the patents and thought they could fix it. Somebody 110 years ago should have taken better notes. Thanks again for all the information that you have so kindly shared.

I mentioned The Great War as the A.H. Fox Gun Co. took on expansion to manufacture rifle barrels for Serbia in early 1915.

The Russians were very poorly equipped to start the war. They had more men in uniform that they had long guns to equip them with. A lot of contracts for manufacture were given out by them in 1915-1916. They also bought a lot of obsolete arms, if ammunition was provided as well. As a neutral the US was well positioned to produce arms for whom ever had the money. And a lot of manufacturing companies tried to cash in, rightly so. But this was a double edged sword in that when things ended they had a lot of investment in materials and equipment that they had no market for. But for about four years there was a lot of money to be made.

I think the war ended six months earlier that the most "optimistic planners" expected. The US had just ramped up a huge number of Patterson Conversions for the 1903 that was to be the secret weapon which would win the war in the Spring of 1919. Whoops, it never got used and was shortly after the war all but completely destroyed. It was going to convert the bolt action into a walking semi automatic rifle capable of a huge number of shots as men advanced to break the trenches. The pistol round was limited but at close range would be impressive. I am glad it never got used because I do not think that the machine gun was going away and any advance across no mans land was still going to be brutally expensive. Once in the trenches it would have been a game changer.

Jon:

I think that's a Pedersen, not Patterson, device. They are worth big bucks to collectors if you can locate one. Most of them were destroyed by the government after the war ended.

Rem

Yea. Autocorrected. I love autocorrect. Changes words to wurds and can make a word salad our VP would be proud of. Like now. I had to type of four times as it kept changing it to if. If I don’t go back and check things it comes out as Harris.

The National Museum of the Marine Corps in Triangle, Virginia holds a couple of Model 1903 rifles converted for use with the Pedersen Device. They also hold a device that was determined to be a Remington shop copy along with at least one magazine.


Thank you, Walt for all of your dedicated research.