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Joined: Aug 2018
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23 |
This thread will be multi-faceted, so bear with me on these subjects.
Ithaca shotgun subject gun is a Grade 2 1910 Flues with 2 7/8 inch chambers -excellent condition -90% case color remaining..
In the mid-1920s, AH Fox and LC Smith (Hunter Arms) responded to John Olin's development of Super X 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells by offering the HE Super Fox and Smith Long Range waterfowl 3 inch guns. Later the Fox Sterlingworth Waterfowl with HE grade barrels. Parker Bros. also offered early their 2 7/8 inch chambering in all their grades. (Parker's research for their shotguns recommended 2 7/8 in chambers to best handle progressive powder in 3 in shells.) A recent thread in the Ithaca Owners site was very conservative in recommended loadings for the fluid steel Krupp barrels in another 1910 2 7/8 in chambered Flues shotgun. I do not fully accept this. Only 14 years between this Ithaca gun and the emergence of the Smith and Fox heavy 3 in waterfowl guns. Since both Parker and Ithaca made the guns for (2 7/8 in) 3inch shells, one would think they could handle at least lead shot in the 3 in shells of the the 1920s. Maybe even the Winchester lead shot high brass 3 in shells of the 70s-80s-and 90s. NOT a steady diet of them, but occasional turkey or goose hunts.
Sherman Bell-Double Gun Journal- did amazing experiments with damascus twist steel barrels and progressive smokeless-so why not Krupp steel barrels in an Ithaca? Open for reasoned logical comment.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 |
Barrels, if in good condition, should be capable of dealing with more stout loads, but how stout? The Flues action was not designed for later 3” ammo, with higher pressures and greater velocity. That would be the NID job. It’s the velocity that might be the problem. The wood is 100 plus years old. Period 3” ammo included extra wadding for better patterns. Todays hyper velocity ammo should never be shot in it.
If you reload there are a number of options from Alliant, assuming you can find any, or Hodgdon web site. Blue dot for Alliant would be my first choice, ImR Blue or Longshot from Hodgdon. The Bluedot ends up about 1200 fps at 8,000 psi which should be fine. The modern 1300-1400 hyper loads, with chamber pressures in the 11,000 psi range are not anything I’d want to shoot in it. But your gun, your decision as they say.
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Joined: Aug 2018
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23 |
Thanks, Jon. I was'nt going to put anything really modern through it. More like reduced RST-Boss or 1990s -type reduced turkey or goose loads. Winchester-Remington made some dedicated turkey ammunition in the 80s-90s that I have still on hand. They still work. I have a Super Fox and Smith Long Range for the tough Canadians...
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,986 Likes: 299
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,986 Likes: 299 |
I have broken my share of Flues stocks. Stay away from the heavy loads Whether your Flues might be the later evolution heavy gun or not.
I have posted here previously images identifying the substantial difference in thickness and weight of the Ithaca Flues 12 gauge shotgun as it neared the end of its product run.
They beat themselves to pieces.
First thing to go will be the top of the stock on the right side, then the web in between the shoulders where the hand pin goes through. There is no way on a Flues to draw the stock forward to prevent the battering. I don’t believe the barrels would ever blow, nor the action crack, but I guarantee you will pound the stock to bits.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23 |
Good information to know. Jay Schacter pretty much agrees that no modern ammunition faster than 11-1200 FPS. These 100 yr old guns have no sense of humor about modern pressures in really modern shotgun shells. I had already decided that this gun will be for turkeys-geese, with ONLY low pressure ammunition and less than 5-10 shots a year.
It might have a better stock -as this st stock is highly figured, with 90% of its color case remaining-and it is a 1910 gun. But that means its 113 years old-Krupp steel barrels or not.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
I "play it safe" with my 1929 era L.C. Smith LONGRANGE- ideal grade32" F&F, DT, AE. I only use 2&3/4" Express loads, and for Turkeys, I use some older Federal Premium coppered loads- No. 4 shot-- wish they were still legal for waterfowl. I have decapitated turkeys at up to 60 paces with that Elsie--great set up- I only own 1 Ithaca double, a grade 2E NID 12 bore, 30" choked 3 & 4, DT, EJ-earlier series with the "snail titty " style cocking indicator pins. Never have owned or shot any of the previous series Ithacas, Flues, Minier, Crass, etc. seldom see any Ithacas around here for sale, except the M37 pumpguns. RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 |
Quarter sawn, straight grain would be the strongest. Fancy curly grain, which has grain going in every direction would not be my first choice. One thing to consider is using larger size shot at low velocity. The down range retained energy for a size four pellet is much greater than a size six pellet. Size does matter.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314 |
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 104 Likes: 23 |
Over the years, I have managed to corner a representative stable of 3-inch Americana doubles: An HE Super Fox, a Long Range Smith, Ithaca 2e, and lastly a Parker Bros. gun recently acquired. Though both early and later-Parker 2 7/8 in guns or Remington-Parkers-are rare. They were offered, but LC Smith and Fox offered specialty models in that chambering. Later Fox offered their Sterlingworth waterfowl model using HE frames and barrels. With new regulations and the Depression, the demand slowed considerably and duck - goose hunters used what they already owned. The Heavy Duck M-12s are a bit newer, and can handle the non-toxic modern shot shells-within reason. My Ithaca will probably get a restricted diet, avoiding pressures that would be unhealthy.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,892 Likes: 109
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,892 Likes: 109 |
Last edited by Researcher; 05/07/23 12:53 PM.
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