doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus identification

Drew,

What would you call this pattern please?

The maker would have called it "English 2 Stripe"

Others
‘Oxford’, Lower grade Hufnagel (Hufnägeln or Horseshoe Nails), Damas fer de clous, Damas Anglais, or lower grade Damas Crolle, Remington ‘Oxford 2 S.J.’, most American maker’s ‘Good Damascus’, some Belgian ‘London’

BTW: W. Richards marked guns made by J.P. Clabrough were sold in the U.S. The 1886 catalog from John P. Moore’s Sons, New York listed “Clabrough’s Make” W. Richards.

Or is it a W. Richards, Liverpool?
http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/history.html

Many thanks Drew!

Although not the finest grade Damascus, since the gun was made in 1897 the barrels have survived recent Nitro re-proof and I am told the minimum wall thicknesses are .030 and .032.

It is indeed W. Richards of 27 Old Hall Street, Liverpool.

When I was a young man, and knew even less than I do now, I assumed that W. Richards and Williams and Powell (who they later absorbed) both of Liverpool had been set up to trade off the names of the famous Birmingham makers, Westley Richards and William Powell.

In fact I now appreciate that both the Liverpool firms trace their roots to the end of the 18th Century and slightly antedate their Birmingham near namesakes.

In terms of strength, not aesthetics, 2 rod was in the top 5 in the Second phase testing of the 1891 Birmingham Proof House Report.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

The barrels were subjected to increasing loads until bursting, a bulge of .01”, or bore enlargement from .729 to .739.
1. English machine-forged 3 rod Laminated steel
2. English fluid compressed steel, Whitworth process
3. English machine-forged 2 rod Best Damascus
4. English steel Siemens - Martin process
5. English hand forged 4 rod Best Damascus

This looks more like 3-bar damascus to me (and not laminated steel). Can I get the good doctor to weigh-in here too?



Not the best representation, my apologies. The gun is not in hand at the moment.

Lloyd: post a link to that gun so I can view a better image

Dr. Drew:

The gun is on Kirby's webpage. I just blew up one of his photographs of the barrels (side view) using his magnifier. J. Lang sidelever hammer.

Imgur is cranky today...

https://www.vintagedoubles.com/catalog/?keywords=J.+Lang

It's 2 Iron

Thank you Sir. So...not laminated but good or "best" English damascus?

There was never a European and British Union for the Nomenclature of Damascus Barrels, makers could name their barrels whatever they wished, and one maker’s ‘Boston’ was another’s ‘London’, and English ‘Boston’ didn’t necessarily look like Belgian ‘Boston’, and almost all of the barrel makers in Liege were probably making a ‘Boston’ variant for the British makers.
U.S. makers often simply referred to patterns as “Good”, “Fine” and “Finest”
The British (mostly) labeled the patterns '2 stripe' or '3 rod', often adding "Best", but no criteria existed for “British Best”
And aesthetic attractiveness didn't necessarily translate to strength

Damascus quality is best judged based on the overall grade/quality of the gun, not the appearance of the Damascus pattern
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0/edit

IMHO this is spectacular damascus, but would not be found on a British "Best" gun



as is this pattern. Note the symmetry in shape and pattern of the scrolls. I can't comprehend the mechanical artistry that could create such a pattern



Parker 6 Iron "Turkish" which is almost never found on British Best (nor is Bernard). Greener thought 4 and 6 iron patterns were "over-twisted"