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Joined: Oct 2023
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Boxlock
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Great find. Just got around translating. Thank you!

The owner did say the shop was near the Palace.

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Originally Posted by mc
What is this guild gun you speak I have never figured out how this guild system worked did each outworker contribute labour and hoped to be paid or was there a business man who financed it?did a guild finance it who did the guild sell through?this supposed system would be in conflict with mfg.and retailers who used the out worker system.im up for any comment or explanation.

It likely worked about as you supposed in your comment. Common thread is no name and no way to identify a particular maker. Outworkers making use of their own time and skill set in cooperation with others to produce a finished gun for sale the proceeds of which must have been in some way shared...Geo

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Back when this gun was made, gun making centers like St. Etienne had plenty of outworkers. Only makers who produced a large number of guns could afford to keep all the workers they needed as full time employees. Small makers relied on outworkers and likely established working relationships with a number of them, depending on how many guns they were making. "The guild" process refers to someone learning the trade to start as an apprentice and eventually become an outworker in a particular specialty. The maker had to make sure that the gun was moving from one outworker to another, and would have been responsible for paying the outworkers.

Just as an example, I have a British 20ga Crudgington which was made far more recently (1966) as ordered by a customer in California. Along with the gun I received a copy of a letter from Mark Crudginton, the owner's son. The letter lists the names of half a dozen workers who were the actioner, barrel joiner, color case hardener, final finishing (the owner himself, I. M. Crudgington), and stocker, as well as a couple possibilities for who might have done the engraving. Smaller makers like Crudgington (they also own Gibbs and make more guns under that name than their own) still rely on outworkers.

I recall reading that one of the owners of the French maker Vouzelaud (are they still in business?) spent a lot of time on the road traveling to St. Etienne and keeping in touch with outworkers who were involved in making guns for them. So the system is still in place in some gun making centers in Europe, although the total output of doubles is much, much smaller than it was back when the French gun under discussion was made.

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I was referring to this plate where the retailer can sometimes be found.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

However, with the Kerne mark on the water table and on the barrel flats, that's been answered.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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mc Offline
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I understand the outworkers concept not the guild .that would mean the guild ,or worshipful company of gunsmith would finance the build and use outworkers to finish the gun then sell it it would put them in competition with gun makers and iron mongers who used the same outworkers not a good business model

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"Marcheurs" - Fab, this is a new word. - c'est un nouveau mot. Need help.

"Guild gun" just means "constructed using parts from different sources in Saint Etienne." This sentence in the text probably explains the "guild gun" terminology best.

"Il travaille régulièrement avec Roullier-Beaume, 4 bis rue Badouillère, à St-Etienne, mais aussi la myriade d’armuriers stéphanois à façon dans tous les corps de métier (marcheurs, monteurs en bois, canonniers, basculeurs…) qui permettaient à l’époque, tout comme à Liège d’ailleurs, de faire des petites séries d’une cinquantaine d’armes, toutes personnalisables à la demande."

"He worked regularly with Roullier-Beaume, 4 bis rue Badouillère, in St-Etienne, but also the myriad of custom gunmakers from Saint-Etienne in all trades (marcheurs?," stock makers, barrel makers, action makers/filers, etc.) who at the time, just like in Liège, allowed him to make small series of around fifty weapons, all customizable on demand."

Basically a retailer in the French countryside - usually a hardware store, would order a gun from a wholesaler in Saint Etienne who would have it constructed. It might even be "finished" at the hardware store. If enough guns were sold by the retailer, he might start putting his name on them. We delved a little into this in this line 5 years ago:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Board=1&main=37809&type=thread

Fab's article throws interesting light on Canvasback's gun. CB - is your gun "4 star" or "5 star?" Stamping not clear. Whatever, it looks like you've got a real gem.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/13/23 10:18 PM.

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mc Offline
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That does not explaine the no name guild gun every time a gun has no name made in France or Belgium people say ,,,it's a guild gun I think it's nonsense.mc

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It's just a term which has entered into the lexicon. The meaning is clear:

-- "Guild Gun": "French or Belgian gun made from assembled components from various gun part makers in response to orders from wholesalers or to special requests."

-- "Fusile de Guilde": "Arme française ou belge fabriquée à partir de composants assemblés auprès de divers équipementiers d'armes en réponse à des commandes de grossistes ou à des demandes particulières."


You can't change it mc. Just shrug and accept.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/13/23 11:08 PM.

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mc Offline
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Okidoki outworker gun it is:)

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+ 100,000 x10?

Last edited by Argo44; 10/13/23 10:31 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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