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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521 |
Steel shot loads are usually loaded to the max. High pressure. High velocity. That’s what does it. They have to be loaded that way to drive the payload at speeds sufficient for steel to be lethal. Any payload leaving a muzzle at 1350 to 1700 fps is gonna be straight up stout.
I never said specifically anything about the actual shot having anything to do with pressure or recoil. It doesn’t. When I mention “steel loads”, I’m basically saying high pressure, heavy payload, high velocity. All things that’ll loosen up a gun and stress a stock with a quickness.
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2 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, Tim Cartmell |
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57 |
I recently finished up a Merkel 147E 12 bore. Owner shoots steel through it exclusively. Not the crazy fast stuff either, “mild steel load”. He was very surprised when I told him his gun was off the face and then proceeded to push feeler gauge after feeler gauge through the gap. Merkels are tough guns. They use great steel, have ample locking surfaces. Steel loads are just harsh. Your AyA will come off the face fairly quickly with the use of steel loads. They simply aren’t as strong as a Merkel, nor are they fitted up as precisely as a Merkel.
Is your AyA made up as a wild fowling piece or a game gun? Heavy action? Thick barrels?
The recoil on most steel loads (even mild ones) is pretty significant. Hopefully your stock will be able to also take the heavy repeated jolts a steel load provides. Keep an eye on that too. Thanks for the insight LeFusil. Good information. The AyA 4/53 BL would be considered a light game gun. 12 gauge, it weighs 6 lbs. 12oz. with a standard action. I currently just shoot the same cartridges in it as my vintage British shotguns. 2 1/2 inch, Gamebore Pure Gold, 1 oz. 1200 fps. I'm careful with all my firearms and don't want to damage them. I don't plan on using steel shot for the foreseeable future. There is no lead bans here where I live, other than for hunting waterfowl. From what I can see re: the British perspective, is no more than 1/2 choke with steel shot, even with the Fluer-de-lis proof stamp. That's my interpretation. British Use of Steel Shot______ TC
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Parabola |
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Joined: Dec 2020
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 904 Likes: 359 |
Drew,
It is a little bit chicken and egg.
British guns marked STD were generally made for lead, if they were made for steel they would be marked with the Fleur de Lys mark.
British cartridge manufacturers load “standard steel” cartridges intended to be safe in good condition Nitro (STD) Proofed guns of the right chamber length and subject to recommended limits on shot size and chokes.
Eley have introduced a 2 1/2” 12-bore Grand Prix Traditional Pro Eco with a biodegradable wad and 30g steel No.4 suitable for use in those guns.
I have been told that it is not a good idea to use steel cartridges shorter than the chamber length of the gun, for fear that the jump at the case mouth could allow steel pellets to emerge through the protective wad.
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3 members like this:
Tim Cartmell, Stanton Hillis, Drew Hause |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,686 Likes: 118
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,686 Likes: 118 |
If Tim's AYA (company) says that he can shoot steel shot through his gun, then he shouldn't have to worry about shooting normal loads of steel shot though it. It should have been tested at the factory to do such. I have a 686 Beretta that I have always used to shoot trap for 20 years. Some places I shoot only allow you to use steel shot if you want to shoot there and you have to buy THEIR ammo to shoot at their range. I have shot several boxes of steel shot through that gun of normal trap loads over the years at that range with an IM choke with no problems. Browning says I can use steel shot in my Citori and I will use steel shot in it if I ever need to. --7 1/2 shot--1 1/8th oz. about 1235 FPS--10,400 PSI in a 12 gauge is what I refer to as a "normal" trap load with lead shot for me. The steel shot load that they sell us is pretty similar. Either breaks targets fairly well.......P.S. Pardon me, Tim for thinking that your gun had screw in chokes at the beginning of this thread. I didn't realize that your gun had fixed chokes. Good luck.
Last edited by Jimmy W; 11/24/23 08:59 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521 |
If Tim's AYA (company) says that he can shoot steel shot through his gun, then he shouldn't have to worry about shooting normal loads of steel shot though it. It should have been tested at the factory to do such. I have a 686 Beretta that I have always used to shoot trap for 20 years. Some places I shoot only allow you to use steel shot if you want to shoot there and you have to buy THEIR ammo to shoot at their range. I have shot several boxes of steel shot through that gun of normal trap loads over the years at that range with an IM choke with no problems. Browning says I can use steel shot in my Citori and I will use steel shot in it if I ever need to. --7 1/2 shot--1 1/8th oz. about 1235 FPS--10,400 PSI in a 12 gauge is what I refer to as a "normal" trap load with lead shot for me. The steel shot load that they sell us is pretty similar. Either breaks targets fairly well.......P.S. Pardon me, Tim for thinking that your gun had screw in chokes at the beginning of this thread. I didn't realize that your gun had fixed chokes. Good luck. An AyA 4/53 is neither a Citori or a 686. The 4/53 is a light game gun. All AyA is saying is that the BARRELS can handle steel loads, loaded to CIP standards. Our steel loads are not loaded to CIP, they’re loaded to SAAMI pressures. Euro proof makes no claims as to the effect of the loads on the action, stock, etc. Take the “mild” 2 3/4” Remmy Sportsman high speed steel, it’s a 1200 bar load (17k psi) Thats not a normal trap load. They are stout, and It’ll loosen up a light game gun fairly quickly. There are some Euro steel loads available here in the States. Bioammo produces CIP steel loads that several places sell here in the USA. I have no personal experience with any Euro produced steel loads. Mr. Cartmell may want to look into offerings like that. If it were my AyA, I’d probably stay away from SAAMI steel ammo.
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1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,269 Likes: 521 |
Drew, The Remmy shells have “1200 bar” printed on the side of the hull.
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1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
My goodness again
That would be the CIP High Performance (Magnum) MSIP of 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,686 Likes: 118
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,686 Likes: 118 |
If Tim's AYA (company) says that he can shoot steel shot through his gun, then he shouldn't have to worry about shooting normal loads of steel shot though it. It should have been tested at the factory to do such. I have a 686 Beretta that I have always used to shoot trap for 20 years. Some places I shoot only allow you to use steel shot if you want to shoot there and you have to buy THEIR ammo to shoot at their range. I have shot several boxes of steel shot through that gun of normal trap loads over the years at that range with an IM choke with no problems. Browning says I can use steel shot in my Citori and I will use steel shot in it if I ever need to. --7 1/2 shot--1 1/8th oz. about 1235 FPS--10,400 PSI in a 12 gauge is what I refer to as a "normal" trap load with lead shot for me. The steel shot load that they sell us is pretty similar. Either breaks targets fairly well.......P.S. Pardon me, Tim for thinking that your gun had screw in chokes at the beginning of this thread. I didn't realize that your gun had fixed chokes. Good luck. An AyA 4/53 is neither a Citori or a 686. The 4/53 is a light game gun. All AyA is saying is that the BARRELS can handle steel loads, loaded to CIP standards. Our steel loads are not loaded to CIP, they’re loaded to SAAMI pressures. Euro proof makes no claims as to the effect of the loads on the action, stock, etc. Take the “mild” 2 3/4” Remmy Sportsman high speed steel, it’s a 1200 bar load (17k psi) Thats not a normal trap load. They are stout, and It’ll loosen up a light game gun fairly quickly. There are some Euro steel loads available here in the States. Bioammo produces CIP steel loads that several places sell here in the USA. I have no personal experience with any Euro produced steel loads. Mr. Cartmell may want to look into offerings like that. If it were my AyA, I’d probably stay away from SAAMI steel ammo. I realize all this. All I'm saying is that my gun manufacturers say that I can shoot steel shot in my gun. So, I shoot steel shot through them. If his AYA says he can shoot steel through his gun, he should be able to shoot steel shot. I don't believe that AYA would say that he can shoot steel shot through his gun if it wasn't so. As long as he doesn't shoot some monstrous load. I would think that he could shoot any 20 gauge load that the average shooter would shoot trap, skeet or sporting clays with. Even though you normally wouldn't use steel for those events. Why would AYA build a gun to shoot steel shot and then turn around and tell you not to use it on an animal because the steel load to kill that animal is too big. In other words, why buy a gun to use for duck hunting and then not be able to use it for duck hunting because the load to kill a duck is too big to use steel shot with. I'd like to know what he intends to use the gun for. I'm anxious to hear what they say.
Last edited by Jimmy W; 11/24/23 01:13 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 325 Likes: 75
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 325 Likes: 75 |
simple reality is that steel requires much high velocities to come close to lead shot performance - in both range and lethality. my experience with steel was brief and unsatisfactory; the first year it was required (1984?), i was invited on a texas coastal goose hunt and bought one box of steel 4's. used them in a brno zh o+u with chrome lined bores - took half the box to drop (not kill) the only bird taken that morning (3 shooters). i gave the rest away, and have never bought steel since....the cost of other non-tox is daunting - but, as a portion of the expenses involved in hunting....it's not a deal breaker for me. i think too much of my guns (humble as they may be), to inflict steel shot on them.
there are many here who disparage bpi (ballistic products inc) loading data as being hazardous to the health of guns and shooters - and i am in agreement with that sentiment. but, they are quite adamant that velocity is the key to steel shot performance....and they will sell the components and supply the loading data to folks who are willing to subject their guns to the level of abuse required for steel to "shine".
i ain't one of those folks...
best regards,
tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."
lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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4 members like this:
Tim Cartmell, eeb, Parabola, LeFusil |
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