doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating Manufrance Robusts

This is interesting. This is a Robust Model 22. It was advertised as being part of an Arms collection from 1927.

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-Manu-France-calibre-16-65-item-11190088.html
Crosse anglaise et plaque de couche en acier.
Canons parachromés d'excellentes qualités ballistiques avec 1/2 choke et full choke.
Arme qui présente quelles traces d'usures sur le bois et le bronzage des canons mais dans l'ensemble excellent état général pour son age. Voir photos.
Arme de collection de 1927 qui fonctionne parfaitement. Toujours très bien entretenue.
Aucun jeu. Fermeture nette.



I asked the Serial number and received a response "101179." Per the chart this puts the gun squarely into 1930. However when this was pointed out to the seller, here is his response:

Bonjour monsieur. Le fusil date de février 1927 comme indiqué dans l’annonce.
Bonne journée monsieur.
Cordialement

To try to move SN 101179 back to February 1927 would create an impossible graph unless Model Nr. 32 began to be produced before 1930, negating Mournetas's information. There is that information allegedly from Manufrance about model 32E and ES being made in 1925 and Model 32 and 32S in 1926 (scroll to the bottom of the first post). I'm wondering if Feb 1927 is a date stamped on the butt. This would not be the date of the SN but the date of the stock. If not then the chart needs to be reworked.

I will say that this gun sure looks like 1926 with both proof marks.
. 98142. . . . .32. . . . . . .Saint-Etienne(SE) proof on tubes; MF factory arrow on flats;

edit: It doesn't look as if the seller has actual proof about the age of his gun:
Le registre de fabrication de manufrance est formel sur la date,
Cordialement

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR MANUFRANCE GUN OWNERS

In my correspondence with the owner of the above gun, he has just sent this message:

Bonjour, les archives de manufrance existent ils sont conservés aux archives départementales de la Loire. Vous pouvez vous diriger vers eux. Ils ont tous les registres de fabrication et numéro de série par modèle.
Cordialement

Dans l’extrait du registre il est indiqué la date de sortie de production, le numéro de série, la date de vente, le nom de l’acheteur.
Cordialement

Good Morning, the archives of Manufrance exist. They are conserved in the archives of the Department of La Loire. You can ask questions of them. The have all the registrations of gun fabrication and serial numbers by model.

In the extract of the register It indicates the date of the production, the serial number, the date of sale and the name of the buyer.

I responded:
"Merci beaucoup. J'ai vu des références à des informations sur Manufrance dans les archives du Département de la Loire et j'ai même lu leur longue histoire de Manufrance. Je vais contacter et voyez ce qu'ils ont. Vous avez peut-être exposé ce que nous appelons en anglais « une légende urbaine » ou « un conte de vieilles femmes ». Merci encore une fois."

See the comments section on this gun:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-Manu-France-calibre-16-65-item-11190088.html

This is the second reference to Manufrance serial numbers being available at Department de la Loire. In perusing the Department site, they refer to dozens of boxes of records being collected from various sources including the CSG union. However, nowhere do they mention records of gun serial numbers. I will, however, write to them and ask the question.

I wonder what FAB thinks about this. (FAB, avez-vous déjà entendu parler de cela.)

Argo,
J'y suis allé il y a quelques temps.
J'en ai parlé dans un message en page 3.

Ah, I didn't realize those were current existing records. I thought they were a page you turned up in a flea market or something. Thanks.

Ah, je ne me suis pas rendu compte qu'il s'agissait des fiches existant. Je pensais que c'était une page que tu avais trouvée dans un marché aux puces ou quelque chose du genre. Merci.

Well that turned out to be a blind alley. But all's well that ends well. Americans now know where to write to get information on their Manufrance guns.

https://archives.loire.fr/n/quand-et-comment-venir-aux-archives-departementales-de-la-loire/n:94

Archives Departmentales de la Loire
6 Rue Barrouin
42000 Saint-Étienne, France

email questions:
https://archives.loire.fr/wform/wform/fill/contact_1/n:79

You must include the model name (Robust, Ideal, Simplex, etc), the model number, and the serial number.

Ça fait déjà quelques années qu'ils ne répondent plus aux demandes de datation, ça leur prenait trop de temps.
Pour avoir des renseignements il faut aller consulter les archives à Saint-Etienne.

Very useful information for owners of Manufrance guns. Thanks for your continuing efforts, Gene.

It's interesting: Mournetas said the Manufrance records don't exist and ever since then we have repeated that mantra over and over. This is yet another of those gun stories that became enshrined in myth.

Fab writes above:
They (Archives of the Department of la Loire) have not responded to requests for dating guns for several years; It takes too much time for them. To obtain information one must consult the archives in Saint-Etienne

Les Archives de le Department de la Loire could charge for the research. For instance Purdey, William Evans, etc. charge $50 for the service but apparently this is too much trouble for them. If they would allow me to buy copies of the books, I'd happily perform the service. It would be a good business for a retiree.
Les Archives du Département de la Loire pourraient facturer les recherches. Par exemple, Purdey, William Evans, etc. facturent 50 $ pour le service, mais apparemment, cela leur pose trop de problèmes. S'ils me permettaient d'acheter des exemplaires des livres, j'effectuerais volontiers le service avec plaisir. Ce serait une bonne affaire pour un retraité

Fab, do you have an address in Saint Etienne?
Fab, avez vous une adresse à Saint Etienne ?

La même adresse que tu as écrit dans ton message.
Tu veux t'y rendre pour consulter les archives MF ?

Ok, I think what FAB is telling us is that the Archives of the Department of la Loire, which are located in Saint-Etienne, no long respond to mail or email requests and that one has to go physically to Saint-Etienne to obtain the research.

I have found this to be pretty much true of French archives in general. It's amazing in a digital age that this still exists but it does. The birth record for my youngest son born in Brussels in Ixelle were still written by longhand in a great book. UK has digitized most of its newspapers and records; you have to pay to get access but you can do it. France - not so much.

However, I would like to test it. I'd like to pick one of BBS's Robusts, perhaps that of Greybeardtmm3 - Robust, model 226, SN 184688 - since he was the poster who got me interested in the subject. Then I'd write to the Loire Archives and see what happens. Would that be ok GB?

N'oublie pas de mentionner le calibre. C'est très important.