doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Heavy 12s and light 12s, all you'll ever need.

I would have to gracefully disagree with Floyd3 that the 12 will do everything the 10 can do. Having carried all of the gauges from .410 to 4 gauge afield I can attest that the best "all around" gauge is the 10. I could make a strong case for the 8 gauge but it is not mainstream so I will stick with the 10. The 10 patterns better than a 12 and can carry a bigger payload if needed. Yes, if we are talking store bought ammo with a modern gun the 12 makes much more sense. But if we are talking vintage guns then the 10 is hands down the king. Those who know, just know. I own more 12's than 10's but I prefer to shoot the 10 at almost everything. Even at quail, a 10 loaded with 1 1/8 ounce of shot is a joy to shoot. I can also put gauge reducer inserts in and shoot 28, 20 16 and 12 gauge if I wish. But the magic of the 10 comes with using real black powder.

I have done both. I once ran a hundred with a Mossberg 500, on a bet, at a registered shoot. It was a nasty, windy and rainy day and I had the lone 100 straight. Many "top" shooters went home early so they did not ruin their averages. I understand that because one bad day could cost them a chance at state or nation honors. I just wanted to shoot and hunted in much worse weather.

I also have run hundred straight and been in shoot offs against shooters who I had no chance of beating under most circumstances. I went anyways and got beat most of the times, but had fun. Now I no longer want to shoot competition anymore. I would rather shoot a round of skeet with a new shooter than a All American. For one it is still fun and the other it is just another day at work. I can not beat the pros but I can share a sport I enjoy with a newcomer and make it easier for him to have some success and enjoyment. And speaking of those hammer guns everyone I shoot with all get a chance to shoot mine if they ask. I always bring extra ammo and give it to them so they too can enjoy these old guns. If I do not give them a chance to shoot a hammer gun, many never will shoot one and miss the hammer gun bug.

Your posts are excellent, KY Jon!! I can see you really enjoy what you do. That's what it's all about!! Good luck to you!!

I try to let shooters try my old guns as well, both the hammer guns and a few side locks as well. They all appreciate it and are usually surprised how light the guns are compared to their O/U and semi-autos. I've even managed to get some of them to either buy a SxS or drag them out from the back of their safes, although none of them have gone far enough down the path to the pre 1900 SxS's like I and the others here have.

Mr. Roberts: I completely understand about the beauty of a slim, light and long sub-gauge gun. They ARE quite attractive! My brother shoots a Scottish 20 (a Graham BLNE) that I talked him into (many years ago now) and he absolutely loves it (and he does allright with it...perhaps more good than great). I've had several 20-gauge guns over the years and while I loved how they looked and carried, I didn't like their lethality on game. Now...that's probably all on me (and my many failures as a shotgunner), but no-matter as I am primarily interested in two things when I go afield...filling my bag when hunting and then achieving only "clean kills". I like everything about a good day afield (& look-forward to it all winter and summer long) but...there must be a reasonable chance at success (at least as I define it). A good 12 (& possibly an exceptional 16) seems to better serve those ends for me.

12boreman: I've never had the luxury of shooting or hunting a "fine" short 10, so I'm still open there to argument. I've seen several over the years that I was quite impressed with, but I've never gone further than that with one. The ammo challenges are even greater than the 16-gauge issues I mentioned earlier here and clearly limit them for the vast cross-section of gun folks.

KY John: I own and use archaic guns as well, and for exactly the reasons you articulated earlier here so-adroitly. They are not "efficient" in any modern sense, but they are "art" to my eyes and I love how they feel in my hands.

I like and use light guns. I don't use heavy shotguns except for automatics. In a sxs, a light 12 is still fat, and there is no way around that. I can wrap my thumb and finger around my 4 lb 11 oz 28 ga sxs at the breech.

I have been giving this thread some thought (thank you for that, I rather enjoy pondering things that I had not considered before) and figured I would share some of those thoughts. These are NOT a post of "facts" just ramblings that, like the OP, is to get feedback, yea or nay. If one is on a tight budget, certainly a single (or in the case of the OP 2) guns that can "do it all" is desirable and in that vein, there is no question that the 12GA reins king, if for no other reason than cost and availability of ammo. I'm not really buying the "wounded birds with subgauges" argument because that is 100% a function of the shooter, not the gun in many cases. Most .410's. for example, seem to come in full choke. If the shooter is proficient enough to hit a bird with the centre of the pattern, a full choke .410 will bring down an uplander just as efficiently as a 12GA with a more open choke since with an open choked 12 shooting 1-1/8OZ for example could have similar pellet count in the same circle as the full choke .410. Perhaps I will pattern a FC .410 and compare to a modified and IC 12 and do a pellet count to see if this hypothesis holds water or not. HOWEVER, the 12 GA with the more open choke leaves a LOT more margin for error with the wider pattern. On the flip side, shoot a grouse at 20 yards with a 12GA full choke and, while it is unlikely that it will be wounded, it is equally unlikely that it will be edible (if hit with the centre of the pattern). IMHO, sub gauges are Wonderfull BUT require more skill to use effectively. For the record, I am NOT a highly experienced shotgunner like many here so these are all just "thoughts" with not a lot of field experience to back them up. I posted this to get the thoughts of those more experienced as to whether or not this makes any sense. Interestingly, I was having coffee with a buddy that used to be a trap shooter. He has a 22GA French flintlock SXS. Said before buying it he took it to the range and tried it out in a round of trap and hit 20 (I am assuming that is out of 25, I have never shot trap before) and that is with a 22GA cylinder bored. In the right hands, I believe that the sub gauges can be just as effective on most stuff as a 12GA but more pleasant to carry and shoot. Even a 12GA will wound if the bird is only hit by the fringes of the pattern. In closing, it seems to me that sub gauges can be just as effective as a 12GA but require more choke, closer shots and a skilled handler. There WILL be exceptions of course (hunting geese come to mind) but would like to hear if any of that makes sense or am I overlooking or misunderstanding something. Flame away.

it ain't about gauge...hits mostly about shot quanitity...

less than 3/4 oz of lead shot ain't enough to cleanly and consistently kill game birds...

with woodcock being a possible exception...

Have to give Ed credit here for the phrase "cleanly & consistently". An ounce and an eighth of lead shot seems to do that (cleanly & consistently kill) without failure and it is, of course, the standard 12-gauge load. I like and use many one ounce loads in my guns, and even 7/8th of an ounce will serve on targets quite admirably. But after hunting almost every fall for what now(?)...54 years, I've come to the conclusion that I get way-more clean kills with the standard 12-gauge load. My 16BLE comes very close to that level of efficiency with 1-ounce loads, and enough that I don't give it much thought anymore. Anything much below those numbers however, and I start to see more wounded birds and lost game. Blame that on me if you want but that's been my experience.

Guns are many things to me (insert the long list here), but they are first & foremost... tools (albeit highly refined!) that I use in the pursuit of game. And while I am clearly not a "bleeding-heart, earth-first, counter-culture lefty" I am very-much interested in humanely dispatching the game that I pursue. When I go to all the time, trouble, and expense to get to point where I can actually get a shot on a wild game bird, I desperately want that shot to count.

If a 12-gauge gun doesn't fit your circumstances, I completely understand. This is not a "knock" on your choices or tastes in guns. FWIW: I keep a very light and slim 28-gauge double hanging around here for the day when my light 12s (and even 16s) are more than I wish to carry on a long day's hunt. I know that day is coming, it's just a matter of time now.

It also depends on what type of shooter you are. Are you a quick shooter or do you let the birds run a little bit? My 20 gauge Ithaca is ideal for quail, but it has a full choke so I let the birds get out of ways before I shoot. I'll use a 12 gauge Model 21 for pheasant and sometimes I can get on them so fast they are still vertical. Or real close to it. So I have to let them get out a ways even though my 21 is I/C--- I/C. I've never shot a .410 or a 28 gauge. I guess I was never interested to shoot something so small. So, 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge or 7/8 oz. 20 gauge does it for me on just about anything.