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Jack, DAH on the LC is 2 3/4". Not trying to drag this out, I just am trying to get a better understanding of this pitch thing. A book by Curtis, Guns and Gunning made a convincing argument that pitch was as important as LOP and DAH? Randy


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Generally speaking, slightly more pitch down on field guns and for folks with big &/or round fronts. Too much can cause facial slap, particularly so if the gun is being shot pre-mounted. Speaking in inches up from the floor, that translates to .5~1.5" away from the jamb 26" up as the normal usable range. If you do a lot of mount & shoot patterning you can prove to yourself that there is a tendency for the gun to shoot a bit higher with less pitch down. Negative pitch or pitch up can cause a gun to slip from the shoulder pocket. FWIW, purpose built international skeet guns will almost always have more pitch down than purpose built skeet guns for American NSSA targets.

My own experience has made me of the school that pitch does matter, but its goal is to do what Jim says, make the gun fit [contact] your shoulder pocket as fully as possible. I would add 'without introducing too much of another component'.

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All these opinions sent me to the books. I quote from Yardley"s book, "Gunfitting: The Quest for Perfection", page 42..."However, measuring pitch by distance of the muzzles from the perpendicular has disadvantages. It is significantly altered by barrel length. The measurement of pitch may be carried out much more accurately in a purpose-built jig which measures pitch in degrees rather than in inches or other units of distance." and "Pitch is usually downwards. With a gun set up for game shooting or sporting clays, an average pitch down measurement for a side-by-side would be about 4 degrees or 2 inches(measured in the latter case from the perpencicular surface to the top surface of the barrel or rib) and a little more, 5-6 degrees or 2.5 to 3 inches for an over-and-under; less pitch than this may, practically speaking, make the gun shoot high because pitch affects the way the gun is mounted." He then goes on to site the amount of pitch various gun notables used. Best, Dr. BILL

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Rabbit, Roland is still around. He lives, or at least visits often, on the trapshooters web site BB. I have his booklet and there is some good information. Not the definitive source on fit but some good information.

As to pitch and my experience, it is similar to what bad ol' craig does. I shoot alot. Probably average 3 flats a week at sporting clays, bunker and some American trap and skeet. I own several guns. Though I primarily shoot one I do fiddle around with stocks and other guns quite a bit. I have found that the right amount of pitch is EXTREMELY important in taming recoil, especially face slap. This issue of the gun "slipping off the shoulder" is not something I am aware of. However, the gun coming up cleanly to a good position is an issue. That is kind of a combination of LOP and pitch. When that works, then if the gun slaps the face for my usually a bit more pitch is in order.
I just take off the butt pad or plate and put in some hard cardboard spacers top or bottom (for me usually top to increase pitch) till it is right. I check if it is right by shooting a round or two. Nothing real scientific. But the results are dramatic. When it is right, the gun does not noticably jump. Anyway, for what its worth.
Regards, Jake


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I measured 5 of my favorite SxS guns. The results follow. (B) is barrel length, (C) is drop at comb, (H) is drop at heel and (P) is pitch , measured in the manner decribed above.
Parker: 30"(B), 1-7/16"(C), 2-7/16"(H) and 3"(P).
Lefever: 30"(B), 1-5/8"(C), 2-7/8"(H) and 3-1/2"(P).
Lefever: 30"(B), 1-7/8"(C), 3"(H) and 4-1/4"(P).
Uggie .410: 26"(B), 1-7/16"(C), 2-5/8"(H) and 2-5/8"(P).
Uggie 28: 26-3/4"(B), 1-1/2"(C), 2-1/2"(H) and 2-3/8"(P).
What does this prove? Only that most of what's been said above is true, pitch measured in the usual way varies with barrel length and is not an easy way to determine how to cut your butt. It's a lot easier to cut the angle relative to the comb line than using the pitch method. I shoot all these guns equally well(for me) and have no indication that any of them shoot high or low. What does that prove? To me, it proves that pitch is not an important factor in whether a gun shoots high or low, assuming you place your cheek on the comb, as most modern shooters do.
To dbadcraig: if you'll check it with a square, you'll find that your butt, after adding the tapered shim, is pretty close to 90 degrees from the comb line. As the Eskimo chief, in "Never Cry Wolf" said, "good idea".


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Jim, thanks for posting the findings of a few of your guns. Obviously, each gun is an individual, with its own set of dimensions. My thinking is the pitch is specific to each gun and has to work in relationship to the barrel. Although I mentioned the wall measuring system, my brother and I use the top of a flat work table and a carpenter triangle and a wood wedge. Lay the gun flat, move the wedge under the barrels till the buttplate is 90 degrees and then measure the table top to the muzzles. Knowing the desired pitch just move the wedge till it has the barrels X inches as desired. Then move the triangle to to your wood adjacent to the buttplate and mark the angle on the wood to be cut. I think all guns are to each its own, and the pitch is just a part of it. But I think an important part and will continue to explore the writings on the topic. Thanks for all the comments. Randy


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Originally Posted By: Jim Legg
...pitch measured in the usual way varies with barrel length and is not an easy way to determine how to cut your butt. It's a lot easier to cut the angle relative to the comb line than using the pitch method. I shoot all these guns equally well(for me) and have no indication that any of them shoot high or low. What does that prove? To me, it proves that pitch is not an important factor in whether a gun shoots high or low, assuming you place your cheek on the comb, as most modern shooters do.


I second that.

I've never done this before....actually compared the pitch of these 4 Foxes that I've stocked over a period of 20 years. I've gotta say I was a bit suprised just how identical they are, though it makes sense they would be.



The first (closest) gun is my 26" 20ga grouse gun and the first shotgun I ever stocked for myself. Like several of the previous posters, I determined the right pitch by trial and error, using spacers to alter the angle of the original butt and build up the comb to the right height and slope. When I was satisfied, I found the butt angle just happened to be 90 degrees. Actually, it might have been 89 or 91, but 90 was close enough and very convenient.

10 years later, when I wanted to stock a 30" 16ga to be a dedicated clays gun, I didn't go through gyrations to measure the pitch of the 20ga so I could duplicate it; I simply cut the butt at 90 degrees and never directly compared the two.

A few years later, I did the same with a 30" 12ga for plains birds.

Currently, I'm stocking a 32" 12ga to replace the 16ga (and possibly my 32" O/U) as my primary target gun. Again I cut the butt at 90 degrees.

In every case, I tested the guns on targets and paper for hundreds of rounds, tweaking the comb height and cast before finishing & checkering. Believe me, if I'd found reason to vary the pitch between a 6lb, 26" 20ga and Anna Nicole (the 8lb, 32" 12ga), I would have. But, like LOP, pitch (provided you have "enough")is not nearly as critical to consistent shooting as a 1/8" variation in drop at face and cast. I compared apples to apples with my Foxes; I'm sure Id see more variation if I included my O/U's. Sure pitch is important, but I understand how JL can say he's happy with a range of 2 3/8 - 4 3/4", and that it pertains more to fitting the gun to the body than affecting POI.


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