doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com In the Interest of Science - Slightly OT, But....

My boss asked me if this ammo would be safe to shoot in his 11-87 ga12 gauge auto.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=9rds-12-gauge-flame-thrower-ammo

Before you scoff too much, let me explain. He's been doing some research with several others into the forces that shaped certain geologic features along the southeast coastal plain (Carolina Bays). The latest theory is that a comet crashing into earth 12,000 years ago may have caused these elliptical depressions, along with massive climate change and the extinction of mastodons and other large animals of the time. The topic has been widely discussed recently in the scientific press and several other popular science TV shows, etc. Someone on the research team came upon this ammo and thought an experiment might be conducted by firing such ammo into sand or mud through a bottomless 55 gallon barrel tilted at about 30 degrees. That is, simulate a comet breaking up and hitting earth at a similar angle.

So the question is whether any of you have ever tried this ammo and if it's safe to shoot in an auto.

My scientific analysis is that I would guess that the ejected shell from an automatic might still be throwing flame and burn the nut that jerks the trigger before he can run far enough.

Does the 11-87 !!"Except"!! 2 3/4" ammunition??

I think an automatic is going to be an exception after it accepts it

I wouldn't use them in my 11-87. There are two holes in the bottom of the barrel that allow gas to be bled off to operate the system. These holes lead into the forearm of the gun. If in using these shells some of the particals, perhaps very small ones, were to make it into the lower area of the gun some damage to the system may occur (pitting). May perhaps set the forearm on fire too!? Just get an old single shot and experiment away.

Dave,
Sorry but I have to ask, inquiring minds want to know - In what way does shooting burning titanium shavings at 900 fps replicate impact cratering?

The cratering is caused by energy, a result of the comet's speed, no? (mass x velocity^2).

I think the highest velocity rifle one could find would be a better test for impact cratering. Easier to chrono too, so one could do the math to estimate impact energy.

Where's Rock Doc?

BTW, This crazy shell is supposed to burn all the way downrange, but instead is going to be fired point blank into mud? Yikes.

I have had three Physics courses and I don't understand it either. I suspect it will be an uncontrolled experiment resulting in muddy data.

Thanks for the comments regarding the use of these shells. I was thinking more about pressures, temperatures, and barrel abrasion when I posted the question. But their use in an auto brings in other factors that certainly need to be considered.

As for the validity of the experiment, I can't comment. Here are a couple of links to the issue. The second one contains a photo of some Carolina Bays. Note that this topic has been reported by National Geographic and the BBC.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11909-did-a-comet-wipe-out-prehistoric-americans.html

http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/Firestorm.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080506-comet-extinct.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6676461.stm

Dave - unless there was "cross talk" between the craters on impact, a single projectile will make a single crater and can be directly controlled. Impact craters are very velocity dependent. Has your boss reviewed the high velocity cratering studies done at Arnold Engineering Development Centerback in the late '60's and early 70's? They used a high velocity rifle for this kind of work. I doubt that the temperature of the impacting particle has much, if any, influence. I know that the composition has less influence than you would suppose; I remember photos of a small (5 grain nylon sphere at near 10,000 fps) projectile driving through a "cast iron" frying pan. Velocities up to around 10,000 fps can be generated with gas expansion guns. After that, you get into rail guns.

2-p, did you do any work on this or have any additional recollections from AEDC?

You really need to check local and state laws regarding use / possession of these shells. I know they are illegal in some places.

One question. Who is sticking their arm into a barrel and pulling the trigger?


Pete