doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Early days of England's best gunmakers

Quote:
"as Birmingham developed big factories which shifted from bench built to manufactured. A manufactured plain, but sound and functional, boxlock non-ejector could be delivered for 10% - 20%"
of the price of a best gun. Bench built less-than-best guns couldn't economically compete. Lower priced guns greatly broadened the economic possibility for gun ownership while changes in culture opened shooting to a broader range of people."

Rocketman:

I for one would appreciate it if you would set some timeframes here in discussing "manufactured" guns. To the best of my knowledge even today it isn't possible to manufacture a double with out some skilled handwork even if it's just for barrel regulation. If you go back 50 years ago then 100 years ago it seems to me less likely you could truly manufacture a double and come up with anything really presentable.
From my own experience I know for a fact that Colt hand assembled and fitted every revolver they made up into the 70s. This also included hand polishing them before blueing which is a time consuming and skilled process.
One of the reasons you're seeing less and less steel(Blued)new revolvers and autos is the hand finishing required to make them presentable is cost prohibitive.
Anyway my thoughts.
Jim

Check out this Westley:


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/MSG396WestleyRichardsWeb4.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/MSG396WestleyRichardsWeb7.jpg

Not bad for Birmingham. I wonder if Westley made it. It reminds me of a Scott Premier. That engraving looks Kell-esque. Maybe Alb Brown?

OWD

A sidelock ejector will clog-up the works in the world's most famous boxlock maker's assembly line.
Most likely made in the back alley sweatshops of B'ham!

In this the age of "stuff," it seems almost inconcievible that the very concept of interchangable machine parts entered the world less than 175 years ago. Eli Whitney showed in the 1840's (as I recall) that guns could be built with interchangable parts. From that point on, Americans focused on factories that mass produced interchangable parts. The American paradygm was mass markets for utilitarian goods at low prices. The old European paradygm, on the other hand, was limited production of high quality goods at high prices. While the interchangible concept was not entirely wasted on Brit gunmakers, they had a had a tradition of small shops and believed their market was limited.

Seems that the Birmingham factories started to grow in the 1870's. It looks to me like that by around 1900 the issue of bench built mid-price and lower guns vs factory built was decided in favor of the factory. In this same time frame, the style issue of boxlocks and sidelcks got decided in favor of the boxlock as the high volume gun and the sidelock as the high quality gun. The higher the quality, the more bench time required. The more bench time, the more possible the small shop. Machine tools were expensive and hungry. Small shops couldn't afford a lot of tooling, but could afford to buy machined work from the trade. Same applies to specialized out-workers.

Always view the Brit gun trade with the understanding that all involved did whatever was necessary to turn a GBP.

It really is amazing how many nice English SxS guns there are still on the racks of rural gunshops in the UK.This week alone I have been shown a multitude of very, very nice guns, some original, some restored and some needing just a little TLC.But like fine ladies of breeding there they stood radiating elegance and poise, amidst Yildiz, Ugartechea's, Baikal' and dare I say the word ( Remingtons)

Those guns that are still on the racks are from the "Nowhere to go with 'em crowd." The un-invited, the city love power people and the multicultural new arrivals.
The Ol'Shots have turned to bones - but their guns remain in gunshop limbo.

Seeing as we are now well off topic the question of when factories appeared has arisen. The factory as we know it was effectively a Birmingham invention, the brainchild of Mathew Bolton. Together with Watt they set out to mass produce reciprocation beam engines starting firstly (1781)with a 2 storey Engine shop to manufacture smaller ( think 8' connecting rod) engine parts. In 1795 he purchased land to set up an assembly plant and foundry. He refferred to it as a "manufactory" which contracted to become factory (ironically manu = hand, fact= to make). British parliamentary delegations were despatched to the US to study machine manufacture of firearms under the interchangeable system 1853 & 1854. On June 7th 1861 11 of Birminghams leading gunmakers met at The Stork Hotel and subscribed capital towards the building of a factory to make rifles with machine tools called the Birmingham Small Arms Co. (BSA) I will give their names as some still show up on sporting guns we see today:-
Joseph Bourne, Joseph Bentley, John Cook, Joseph Cooper, John Goodman, Isaac Hollis, Charles Playfair, Pryse & Redman. Joseph Smith, John Swinburn, Thos Lawden, William Tranter, Thomas Tuner
As a group they probably reflected more bias towards the military end of the market. Of the Birmingham Sporting gun makers I can think of the following who would typically be considered as factory makers, Greeners, Scott, Webley,Bonehill,
BSA, The Midland Gun Co. The Sporting Gun Co. C.S.Wright, Westley Richards (1875-@ 1895)
If anyone is interested I suggest reading:-
The Birmingham gun trade, David Williams ( Gunnerman Books)
A History of Birmingham, Chris Upton (I got mine in the UK)
Well back to the bench.
http://www.hglomasgunmakers.com

Off topic or not, and as we debate not specifics but theory, which we all seem to have enough of, in other words BS, the fundamental question as this arguement developed is why would W & C Scott & Sons need anyone and especially W. Palmer Jones to build them a shotgun???

Possible reason: the gun in question was built on a patent registered to Jones. Could be Jones (theoretically speaking, of course) had not licensed this patent to other makers, hence they would build it if Scott's for some reason wanted one.

Conversely, Scott's built plenty of guns not to their own original design. If the patent was in force -- and they had an agreement -- they would license it from patentee and oftentime you will see another's patent number and "use number" on Scott's action flats.

Again, just a possible reason.

All Right back on topic again!!!
Good points were made there Blackadder, however how can we find out who built OWD's pic of a sidelocked Westley Richards???
Also, awhile back I saw a beautiful Willaim Moore muzzleloader for sale, it looked way out of his league, I wonder if he was the one to build it or did someone else???