doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Curtis and Harvey no.6 powder Equivalent

Hello all-

Please excuse me if this doesn't fit perfectly squarely in the niche of this particular discussion forum of DGS - this particular lane of traffic gets seen the most though and I want as complete a slice of your's all experience as I can get.

Most of what I shoot are early to mid-late ninteenth century cartridge guns - also some caplock and flintlock stuff, but mostly early cartridge guns.

When I'm lucky enough to find period text on loading and running these old guns I often see reference to Curtis and Harvey no.6 powder. Also, I know that today's powders aren't what the good old black was in a number of ways, most notably power (efficiency) and fouling.

For the most part I just grin and bear it, choosing to run Goex FFg and whatever wad/bullet/patch lube I'm working with that particular season and increase the load till I get shotgun patterns or rifle groups that work for me at velocities that are appropriate for the game I'm hunting.

With the double rifles this can end up kind of cheating me of velocity, as if I'm increasing the powder charge weight to get the barrels to print together, depending on the rifle or the bullet (or ball) weight, I could end up getting lower velocities (not as good of performance) at my 'regulation load' for the reason that I'd have to increase the load mass (and initial weight of ejecta inside the barrel-time part of the ballistic life of the charge)

Short of just going with FFFg powder (and risking excessive presures in some of the guns) does anyone here know of a new modern powder that has been shown via such efforts of Bell and Amburst to duplicate the performance of C&H no.6?

I'm very much interested to hear what you all have to say.
My interest is around anything from wee little .410 2-1/2" 7/16oz loads through 28b blackpowder shotshells to bore rifles from 20b on up as well as the big bottleneck BPE 450 Express cartridges.

What's the latest news?



--Tinker

Could that be just an old wise tale ?

I'd bet the quality control at Goex is better today than it was when Curtis and Harvey no.6 powder was available.

Hi Joe-

Don't get me wrong -- I love the Goex product and use it almost exclusively.
As I typically need to make my own cases from scratch, I do all I can to engineer 'extra space' in there to maximize powder room.

It's been proven time and time again though that there just isn't enough room in BPE cases (like 450 3-1/4", 500/450 BPE etc) to get enough Goex 2f in there and either get close to spec velocity or in the case of a double rifle, get a load that will shoot to the gun's regulation -- or hit to the sights.

I'd heard of what was a new product for a couple years ago, Goex Express, that it was developed to have 'enough poop' to work out in BPE cartridges. I'd heard that with that stuff the BPE guns would shoot to the sights, would perform to spec velocities, that it could be used successfully (without having to use 'duplex loads' of partial charges of smokeless powder) in double rifles, and that the fouling was more 'moist' than that of the 'regular' Goex powders.

Also I'd heard that Swiss or Kik powders *might* have some promise, but haven't heard the real-for-real skinny on them.
Haven't heard or seen the credible account saying
"Yessir. Swiss or Kik (insert model of swiss or kik powder that does the trick) powder will work every time. Just take the Victorian era charge prescription of this powder, load it in your brass, seat a bullet, and you'll get perfect results..."

I'll admit that I haven't been really been paying any attention to blackpowder developments for the past couple or three years either.

Again, hopefully someone here has, and knows of some 'new' genuine black powder that'll fill the bill I'm presenting here.


--Tinker

Sorry I thought you were talking shotguns....The rifle section is lower down on the main page.
I have shot some Swiss in my 10 and 12 ga. cartridge shotguns I think it fouls the barrels allot worse than Goex FF.

HJoe

Thanks for the directions to the bore rifle/double rifle section.
I know it's there -- and I also know that there is very little traffic there at all.
That's why I chose to put this somewhat (could say marginally) off-topic topic here in the general discussion area.

For all that's worth, I think I did the right thing!
Mind you, I have shotguns to feed as well as rifles.
Got you to speak up for one thing, and your comment about the fouling from Swiss has value in my world.

Is there much more you could note on the loads you've run with the Swiss powder?
Were these loads something you'd developed with Goex 2F and then simply swapped volume for volume with the Swiss powder?
If so, which 'flavor' of Swiss did you choose for these loads?
I hear a lot of folks noting the use of 'F and a half', but I haven't seen much to the effect of comparison -- or even performance information on the Swiss 'F and a half'

You got more to add here?


Thanks a bunch



--Tinker

Tinker the only Swiss powder I've shot was ready made 10 ga. ammo from Metallic Cartridge Co. several years ago. When I pattern my guns I clean between shots (usually a few wet patches of alcohol followed with a couple of dry ones).

The ammo I load myself for my 10 and 12 ga, shotguns has been with Goex FF.
Goex seamed cleaner than Swiss between shots, might be because I use a lubed cushion wad from Circle Fly.
I did cut one of the Mettallic shells open I can't recall if he used a dry wad or not..I do remember Swiss is some strange looking black powder.

Mr. Tinker:

It is hard to say for sure just how good the powders were back when black powder was gunpowder. The making of black powder is part science and part art, and much of the knowledge was lost when the world went to the new fangled imitation gunpowder.

I have read of anecdotal tests of remnant cans of old powder vs. modern, but I don't know if any such test would be conclusive, because any old powder would be, well, old. Without having been preserved in a properly controlled environment, what ever that may be, there is no way of knowing that the properties are the same as when the powder was young.

Personally, I don't think that the powder was necessarily much better back then, but there were a lot more choices and I suspect it would easier to obtain the optimum powder for a given application. There were musket powders and rifle powders and sporting powders and fowling powders and who knows what all. Loads for specific arms specified the brand and granulation of powder. Powders were produced regionally as well, and therefore likely optimized for the local climate. Atmospheric conditions, particularly relative humidity, do affect how black powder performs.

Perhaps the main reason it is difficult to achieve the velocities recorded in the past with a given cartridge today is that the cases are constructed differently. There is a lot more brass in a modern case and it simply will not hold as much powder.



But to answer your questions about currently available powders, there is no doubt that Swiss powder has more bang per a given volume or weight than Goex. The relatively new Goex Express is more powerful than standard Goex, but still not the equal of Swiss.

In the search for velocity I would not fear to use 3f in the smaller cases your mention such as the .410 and 28 gauge. I use Swiss 3f in certain .45-70 loads for the velocity increase, but this is in a falling block rifle. I personally would not be afraid of using it in an original double gun of .45 or less in good condition, but you have to follow your own head on that one. I have no personal experience with double rifles.

BP velocity depends on a number of factors, but to give you a vague idea of the difference in powders, in a .45-70 with a 500 grain bullet one could expect a 50 to 75 fps increase switching from Goex 2f to Swiss 1-1/2f. Similarly, there will be an increase in velocity of 40-50 fps from Swiss 1-1/2f to Swiss 3f.

As always, your mileage may vary...

Best of luck,

Glenn

Tinker,

The closet you will get to Curtis & Harvey is indeed Swiss - its the only true sporting grade powder avaialble today. If you want proof of the quality and performance of it check out the BPCR crowd.

Shooters using Swiss powder have dominated the national compatition at Raton for years.

Here is the breakdown:

GOEX has improved considerably over the past few years. They had too. Currently GOEX is straddling the Musket /Rifle grade line. For a good many years they got away with producing just a musket grade powder because they were the only game in town. I still wont use it. Its dirty and lacks consistency.

Next up the ladder is Schuetzen. Its produced in Germany by Wano under the guadance of the folks who produce Swiss. Earlier on Wano tried to enter the US market but failed. It simply wasn't up to snuff. Then James Kirkland convinced them to improve thier product to the point were it is considered a true rifle grade powder. Its good stuff and priced very competatively with GOEX.

On the same rung with Schuetzen is KIK. KIK is from Slovenia. Its good powder but would be even better with a higher grade of finish.

At the top of the heap is Swiss. Its the only true sporting
powder available today. It is expensive. Lot to lot consistency with Swiss is incredable (GOEX always stuggles with this)and the finish is incredable - sharp hard highly polished grains and the best ingedients available.

Whats the difference?
GOEX uses Hardwood charcoal which in the old days was considered only suitable for a musket grade powder (slow burn rate)They also rely on an outside source for thier charcoal. For all we know it could be the same guys who make the biquette's for your grill.

Swiss uses Buckthorn Alder considered absolutly necessary to produce a fast burning sporting powder. They produce all thier charcoal inhouse which means they have absolute control over the process. Charcoal is the make or break element in regards to powder. If not processed carefully to control the moisture content you end up with a dry hard fouling powder.

As for finish GOEX uses a lot of graphite to coat the grains. Graphite is used to keep the grains from sticking together. However, back in the heyday of black powder it use was discourged because it slows the burn. Swiss will clump if stored a long time. However a few shakes of the can will free it. Back in the old days they would routinely roll the kegs around to loosen the powder.

GOEX is very soft its easily crushed which leads to lots of fines. These fines will cause variations in velocity from shot to shot which the long range BPCR boys don't want to see.

Swiss grains are very hard with few fines. In addition Swiss is denser. i.e. it takes less powder if measuring by weight. This means a full 90 grains of Swiss (by weight) might fit in a given cartridge while the same weight of GOEX will not allow seating of the bullet without undo compression.

I encourage you to try it. as for Swiss 1.5 its basicly 2F any more of the fines have been removed. Its aimed squarly at the BPCR crowd.

As for GOEX Express as long as they use hardwood and outsource thier charcoal I wouldn't beleive thier claim of moist burning. The mousture is released from creosote within the charcoal. It requires very specific parameters during processing to prevent the creosote from flashing-off and leaving you with a lumb of carbon that is absolutly dry.

HomelessjOe,

The wads from Republic are lubed with SPG.

I hope this helps.

THARPER

Thanks for the comments.

When you said

"I encourage you to try it. as for Swiss 1.5 its basicly 2F any more of the fines have been removed. Its aimed squarly at the BPCR crowd."

Did you mean to say that if I'm using swiss I need to do something with it before I use it?


Again, thanks for your input, I greatly appreciate it.



--Tinker

You're welcome.


Glenn