April
S M T W T F S
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30
Who's Online Now
6 members (Borderbill, docbill, Der Ami, Adam Stinson, Steve Helsley, 1 invisible), 142 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics35,538
Posts500,436
Members14,013
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Boxlock
***
Offline
Boxlock
***

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
"Also saw a couple rechambered for 45/70 that had blown up in the chamber area."

That would not surprise me. One observation here...how much metal was removed...is quite correct. While a shotgun, which fires a relatively low-pressure shell, can handle this, rechambering one of these guns for a rifle cartridge (especially a monster like a .45-70) turns it into something that would be suicidal to shoot.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 16
Dalkowski-
My understanding of these conversions is that they stem from the Treaty of Versailles? Are these not German military firearms that were de-militarized by the conversion into something that could still be used under the treaty's supervision?
Additionally, the metal in the action is exceedingly thin to allow for the 12ga barrel, and the locking lugs of the bolts are barely engaging on them.
As I understand this to be true,(at least in the case of the ones I've been shown) Please tell us their origins, and what weaknesses we might encounter that would cause us to lose an eye.
I would not buy or sell one of these, knowing they could easily chamber a deadly load through operator error.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Dalkowski110,

Thanks for coming over and addressing the subject at hand. I apologize for the way you were treated, bad behavior is not only tolerated here it has its cheer leaders. Hard to believe but at one time this was one of the best sites on the net. Again thanks for your contribution and I’ll see you back at the other site.


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Boxlock
***
Offline
Boxlock
***

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Thanks Mike,

Let it be known that I am a serious researcher. My analysis of the Geha, Remo, etc. is objective, aims to find verifiable facts, and was never along the lines of "oh, let's revise history and make these things into K-guns."

That said, I will get on to answering some legitimate questions posed by ClapperZapper...

"My understanding of these conversions is that they stem from the Treaty of Versailles?"

Kind of. Not directly, but more from the paranoia in Germany at the time about "our army is gone, what next?" The original D.R.P (Deutches Reichspatent) was issued in late 1919 for Gebrueder Rempt, better known as Remo-Gewehrfabrik. Remo also made some absolutely splendid rifles that go in the $10,000-$15,000 range (check out some of their boxlock stalking rifles if you get the chance...they also made double shotguns, but I've not seen any except in catalogues), but as best I can figure, they were terrified of losing their ability to produce rifles due to the Germans losing international priviliges left and right. As it happened, their stalking rifles and double guns were unaffected, but they'd both put a lot of effort into the design of their new shotgun, dubbed the Nummer (Number) 126, as well as produced actual examples. It got to the point where they was simply no turning back. And the Remo Nr. 126 was quite successful...over 100,000 were sold between 1919 and 1932, but the company started having financial problems due to a combination of unwise spending in the late 1920's and the stock market crash. The Geha is a little tougher to figure out. It's clear that it was a competitor that was produced beginning after the D.R.P. on the Remo Nr. 126 had expired, but no one is quite sure who first made the Geha. Several companies put them together...most notably Rheinmetall and for a time after the Depression, F.W. Heym (of all manufacturers) seems to have made them.

"Are these not German military firearms that were de-militarized by the conversion into something that could still be used under the treaty's supervision?"

Well, that's the thing...to demilitarize a Gewehr 98, all you had to do was remove the rear sight and lengthen the chamber by three millimeters. THAT is actually a very common conversion you'll find if you hunt around the German sporting rifle market. Most '98's were demilitarized by turning them into sporting rifles.

Most of the Gehas seem to have been made on a huge group of unused 1916-1918 Spandau receivers subcontracted by either Pieper & Co. of Liege or Siemens & Halske. It was long thought that Gehas were actually made by these two companies, but the discovery of a handful of original Gewehr 98's bearing the same markings has changed that line of thought. As opposed to forced demilitarization, it was more likely a marketing ploy at first (and then, in the early 1930's, an excuse to keep Germany's arms factories running at full speed).

"Additionally, the metal in the action is exceedingly thin to allow for the 12ga barrel, and the locking lugs of the bolts are barely engaging on them."

Not quite. The frontal locking lugs don't enagage AT ALL. They don't need to. The Mauser 98 action was designed with a third lug, sometimes called a "safety lug," engaging just fore of the trigger. It may not seem like much, or sound like much, but that safety lug can handle significantly more than a typical American bolt shotgun from the period. It can handle over 15,000 PSI repeatedly. A 12 Ga. shotgun shell produces around 10,000. As for the action thickness, while it would be extremely dangerous with a rifle cartridge, again, because of the lower pressures a shotgun shell creates, there is no inherent danger.

"As I understand this to be true,(at least in the case of the ones I've been shown) Please tell us their origins, and what weaknesses we might encounter that would cause us to lose an eye."

How to lose an eye...either overload the gun (because even the "mighty mite" safety lug will blow out if you start loading the gun with baby magnums or 3" shells), forget to watch for a cracked lug (not caused by repeated pressure, but rather survival from an overload), forget to put in a short (2 1/2" is what I recommend) shell or, and I stress that this the most, foretting to MAKE SURE YOUR BOLTHEAD IS SECURE. Because the nice folks at Remo-Gewehrfabrik reinforced the bolthead with a screw, you've little to worry about there. But Gehas and Hard Hit Hearts rely only on spring tension. If the spring snaps (almost without exception on ejection) and the bolthead is ejected with the shell, the gun can still fire. If someone sticks another shell in there, well, you're gonna get the backblast from the primer in your right eye.

"I would not buy or sell one of these, knowing they could easily chamber a deadly load through operator error."

I'll admit, they're not shooters for everyone (although more for their extreme clumsiness than being dangerous), but if you ever find a beater, they do make nice wall-hangers and/or conversational pieces.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,374
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,374
Ok, I had Mossberg 95 or 75....? with 2 shot clip. At least the Mossberg had adjustable turn choke at the muzzle. Let me say something nice about our gem. This K98 "smoothie" is big step above French military Chasspot conversion.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 16
Thank-you Mr. Dalkowski.
I apologize if my questions seem abrupt. I am very serious by nature. Some would say, generally sober.
I like facts, and seek clarity at every opportunity. Engineering details regarding the hollowing out of the action are especially prized. The de-militarization story seems to swirl around militaria circles all the time when these conversions are discussed.
I am not saying their base action is inadequate in any way, but only that a modern shell could easily cause a problem.
I accept that not every shotgun is a sensible acquisition for every person.
Thanks for your contribution to the knowledge pool.

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Boxlock
***
Offline
Boxlock
***

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16
"I apologize if my questions seem abrupt. I am very serious by nature. Some would say, generally sober."

Oh, no problem. Your questions are fine and perfectly legitimate. I'm only happy to answer them and appreciate your thanking me!

"Engineering details regarding the hollowing out of the action are especially prized."

Metal was removed from the ring, the action was threaded to accept a barrel, then underwent a second heat treatment. A LOT of the people that say these guns are time bombs point out that removing that much metal literally reverses the heat treating process. And that's 100% correct. Which is why the German gunmakers re-heat treated them. Compare these to the aforementioned (and extremely dangerous) Chassepot conversions, which were not re-heat treated.

Technically, every German sporting rifle, Geha, Remo, and Hard Hit Heart made on a Gewehr 98 action from 1919-1933 is "demilitarized." The Versailles Treaty story is just that...a story. I've tried repeatedly to verify it and cannot. What more likely happened in the case of the Geha and Hard Hit Heart (but NOT the Remo) was that Spandau didn't want to lose a ton of money, sold their subcontracted actions to a group of several German gunmakers who were watching the Remo succeed on the international scene, and that was the birth of the Geha circa 1926 or 1927 (a DRP only lasted 7 years).

Why make them into shotguns and not rifles? Simple. They were looking for success in an international market. While rifle ammunition at the time was fairly country-specific (when was the last time anyone saw an American-made sporter in 8x60JS?), shotgun ammo was relatively universal, especially 12 Ga., 16 Ga., and 20 Ga. As such, they could sell the gun on the US and British markets by A) copying an existing design (the Remo) and B) putting comparatively minimal effort into the conversion (by that I mean focusing solely on the action while ignoring things such as engraving and high grade wood).

"I am not saying their base action is inadequate in any way, but only that a modern shell could easily cause a problem."

I would agree in the sense that your bolthead stands a better shot of getting ejected (the solution to which is actually easy if you notice it...just pop it back in), a person gets careless with checking the bolt after every shot, and they get the backblast from the primer in the eye. While using the gun as a single shot only does help reduce this, it doesn't eliminate it.

Also, just to clarify; when the gun is cocked with a round in the chamber, the bolthead is such that it can't be blown out. The bolthead can't be pushed out...rather, it's all too easy to pull it out with a manual cycling of the action.

If anyone is wondering what I feed mine just to get an idea of what I advocate using, I use Polywad Vintager 12 Gauge 2 1/2", which is extremely wimpy. Works just fine, and doesn't crack the stock.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
I've had one of these 98s in 16 gau. for 53 years and still have it. My father bought the gun for me on my 16th birthday, at one time it was my only shotgun and I used it a lot, hunted almost every day back then. I won't say much about about the "other" bolt action shotguns available at the time but IMHO most were clunks compared to these 98s. These 98s had their faults but workmanship especially in the metal department was more than adequate ( smooth ) for a cheap gun - I think father paid $20.00. BTW used store bought, standard ( no magnum ) load shells available back then & now - never a problem. Just my 2 cents worth, which I hestitated to post with the atmosphere on the site at present. --- John Can.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,834
Likes: 5
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,834
Likes: 5
I whish I hadn't even bothered posting to this junk...

Quote : "Feel free to use this system to discuss your doubles, drillings, combination guns, other fine firearms"

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,526
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,526
"...and other fine firearms." therein lies the rub. to me a fine firearm is one that performs reliably and does exactly what its owner requires of it. some people, not being born with silver spoons in their mouths, don't go around shooting london bests and optimus lefevers. some of us, a "best" gun is the best we can afford. to me, all guns are fine excepting those that are unsafe or unreliable or just flat bad designs that don't work.

the topic of the thread was clearly identified. if you aren't interested, DON'T READ IT. it's not like there's a limited supply of electrons that are getting used up and cutting down on the availability for other topics. and you're probably not the only one who wishes you hadn't posted in the first place.

and don't call another mans guns junk.

roger

Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u9 Page Time: 0.047s Queries: 35 (0.014s) Memory: 0.8669 MB (Peak: 1.8990 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-04-23 13:41:46 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS