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Just a speculation. I remember reading memoirs of a XIX-century Russian gunsmith, the man was evedently a good handiman but short on theory. So, apparently, his most common job was honing. Like, the customer isn't satisfied with how the gun patterns? Hone it! No improvement? Hone it again! So, what I'm driving it is, can it be that flaring started out as a method to fix some muzzle defect. So that the guns actually patterned better after it, and it started the myth that all flared barrels shoot better than all non-flared ones?

Last edited by Humpty Dumpty; 11/21/08 08:37 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Fowler
] Fowler: Here is a quote from An essay on shooting [based on La chasse au fusil by G.F. Magné de Marolles].
By Essay, Gervais François Magné de Marolles
Published by , 1789...


EDM: I quoted the "Table of Contents" of John Acton's English language book, An Essay on Shooting: Containing the Various Methods of Forging, Boring, and Dressing Gun Barrels, Practiced in France, Spain, and England (1789). According to my bibliography, Shooting Flying by Robin Chute (2001), Acton's 1789 Essay... is "...largely a translation of La Chasse au Fusil (1781)." Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the entire English language book, originals of which which tend to be offered at $750 to $1,500 by antiquarian book dealers. Maybe someday....


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Salopian,s post of 07/07/2008 , "History of choke boring"
covers some aspects of this topic. It is recommended that those interested review relevant posts.


Roy Hebbes
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Originally Posted By: rabbit
I find fowler's textual analysis convincing and Muderlak's not so convincing... jack


rabbit: What you need to do is re-read my post. I simply quoted an old book, and I said that the translation left it somewhat unclear as to whether the author's original Portuguese phraseology was that the the relief was started two or three fingers behind the muzzle--"within"--thus resulting in some constriction at the muzzle, or starting at the muzzle going to two or three inches "within." The author was not perfectly clear, and a simple two letter word ("to") would have done it. I expressed no opinion one way or the other; I just quoted the book, which is not as clear as one would wish, and observed the alternate possibilities.

Interestingly there is a cross-section of a barrel at p.366 of The Perfect Gun (1718) that shows relief at the breech and muzzle ends and constriction at the mid point; a ball touches at the mid point but is loose at the ends. Yet this seems, in context, to be an example of a smooth-bore musket, not an example of boring a fowling piece for "hail-shot" (unless the pictured balls are just to illustrate the bore-diameter variations?).

W. W. Greener in The Gun... has line cuts of various barrel cross-sections; three are "old style" being pre-"choke boring" (at p.441, 2nd ed. 1884), and example #2 shows relief at both ends and constricted in middle, exactly like the image in the 1718 book, the only difference being that Greener's barrels are for shotguns, not ball muskets.

Based on other old books, especially W. W. Greener's The Gun... (I have the 1884 2nd ed. et seq), I may think the relief imperfectly referred to in The Perfect Gun was from the muzzle inward, but I stated that my "...point, however, was that they were manipulating bore diameters to concentrate hail-shot in the 1600s." I expressed no opinion one way or the other--I simply quoted an old book for interesting historic info.

Most people can just take the information and digest it; others prefer to add value judgments. Finding my raw facts "not so convincing" shows you should start over and read it again. Fowler made some good points.

As to how the relieving at the choke produced a tighter pattern, again, read my original post: The author of the old book believed that "...This widening serves for two things which are that the pressure, and force which the powder makes in the narrow part of the gun may be less with that widening, in order to give ease to the hail shot, that it may leave well, and keep together..." (The key word here is "believed.")

I read this to mean that the relief at the muzzle, in the author/gun maker's experience, reduced the "blown pattern" effect by reducing pressure and "easing" the shot out of the muzzle, thus improving the shot count in relation to a similar bore-size and length barrel without relief at the muzzle. Fowling piece barrels were quite long at the time, four foot and more, and the burning characteristics of the black powder often depended on luck of the draw vis a vis source of supply. And if you think about it, constricting the muzzle would have made loading more difficult in the days before breechloaders. EDM


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Quote:
I read this to mean that the relief at the muzzle, in the author/gun maker's experience, reduced the "blown pattern" effect by reducing pressure and "easing" the shot out of the muzzle, thus improving the shot count in relation to a similar bore-size and length barrel without relief at the muzzle. Fowling piece barrels were quite long at the time, four foot and more, and the burning characteristics of the black powder often depended on luck of the draw vis a vis source of supply. And if you think about it, constricting the muzzle would have made loading more difficult in the days before breechloaders



AHHHH, For me the lights just came on!
EDM, I think you just hit the nail right on the head!

I and others were trying to rationalize how opening a muzzle could tighten "normal" patterns, they probably weren't normal, they were actually "blown". AHH, I see said the blind man.


Last edited by HIGH$TRAP; 11/21/08 04:35 PM.

The clearest way into the universe is through a forest wilderness.
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Ed brings up several very good points. Even the proof houses eventually recognized there was variation between batches of black powder. Eventually tools like this were developed so they could measure the difference.



The early workman did not have the most precise instruments available. For a long time only rough gauges were available to them.


Add to this that the measure of a bore depended upon the pound. A pound was not the same every where at all times. There was a variation that occurred from country to country.

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Well, Ed, did the Portugee go in three fingers depth and jug choke it or not? One (not necessarily only the singular me) might be tempted to almost swear you suggested that he/they did at least twice in two separate posts but one won't now that one is apprised of the the intellectual--and possibly moral--dangers of speed reading. Thanks for straitening me out!

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Originally Posted By: rabbit
Well, Ed, did the Portugee go in three fingers depth and jug choke it or not? jack


And the answer is...(pause for drama)...I don't know.

But what I do know is how difficult it is to translate accurately. For example, remember JFK's gaff in Berlin, when in a fit of German/American solidarity he declared something like, "Ich bein Berliner," which in colloquial Kraut talk was to say:

"I am a jelly doughnut."

I thought the quoted "Portugee" passage could be read either way, sort of like an ink blot test. But additional collateral reading leads me to believe that jug choking ca.1600s/1700s was less likely (or more unlikely) than simply relieving at the muzzle to a few inches in. It would have have been much easier, and if my "blown pattern" rationale is valid...well, how many henweighs of fairies could dance on the head of a breech-loader hinge pin.

What's a henweigh?

About a pound and a half without the feathers. EDM


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The answer is...(pause for drama).....not according to what they wrote.

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Bull man takes of horns?

jack

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