doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identifying unknown Italian maker

I've recently acquired an Italian SXS with open hammers in 12 gauge. It was listed by the vendor as being of "Unknown" manufacture. The proof marks indicate that it was made in 1951 and is proofed for nitro.

There's a mark on the water table, which I believe is the maker's mark, which I am trying to identify. It consists of an illustration of an open book with "BG" written on the facing pages. A lion stands next to the book with his fore paw on top of the book. Under all of this appears "S. Marco" or "I. Marco" - it's hard to see clearly.

I found a post on another site where the poster claims that the "S.Marco" is not the name of the maker, but stands for "trade mark" and indicated that what appears above it is a trade mark. I am beginning to doubt this information, as I have not found evidence of any other trade marks with this inscription underneath. Rather, it appears that this is part of the mark and refers to the now-defunct maker Armi San Marco.

Does anyone know about the trade mark question, or whether the mark in the top left corner of the image below indicates Armi San Marco, or some other maker?

I wonder if the BG could stand for Bernadelli Gardone. There is still a hammer gun in their current line up. Just a possibility. Lagopus.....

I have a similar 16 bore boxlock(Model 409???) that I enjoy shooting with 26" tubes that has the side escape gas channels. I've been meaning to order a reprint catalogue, which I think has the same trademark, from Cornell - http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates2/ARMI%20San%20Marco%201964.htm , but I haven't taken the time. I think San Marco is an area near Venice or is everything named after St. Mark - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_San_Marco .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A definite possibility. Another possibility is that it stands for Bescia, Gardone (Val Trompia). But wait 'til you see my next response...

The web site that you reference is the one that really messed me up! It does, indeed, have a motif with the lion and the paw on the book. The weird thing is that the lion is facing the other direction, the letters 'B' and 'G' are in the opposite order, and yet they aren't reversed (mirror images). You would think that, whatever the B and G stand for, they would at least appear in the same order.

To solve this puzzle, we're going to need more evidence, or someone who can put some of these ideas to rest.

BG is Brescia Gardone the major gun center in Italy. Brescia is the province, Gardone is the city.

The winged lion or lion is the symbol of Saint Mark, the writer of the gospel. St Luke is a winged ox or ox, St John is an eagle, St Matthew is an angel or human.

Piazza San Marco is the Square of St Mark's, a famous church in Venice ( Venezia ) built in 828 that has nothing to do with modern shotguns. It is not near Gardone. Great for hand blown glass however.



The fact that it has the stamp of St Mark indicates it was made by Armi San Marco. They became known for their replica pistols.



Pete

I too have an Italian S Marco 12 ga shotgun in used but nice condition. According to the date code it was made in 1969. Are we saying that these are the Italian version of "Guild Guns" and were not made by any one specific maker?
Jim

Made at Via Parte 33 by Fabbrica D'Armi Fausti cav. Stefano & Figlie.

PeteM:

Thanks for the info bridge and correction. I didn't intend to infer that guns were made in Venice.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Is it possible that only the reciever was made by ASM and the gun finished by another maker? Steffano Fausti and Sons (which still exists)? ASM made some very nice replica guns later on; their "Spaghetti Colt" clones are real clones--parts interchange with a First Generation SAA perfectly.

San Marco also has a martial implication; the Venetians being a very warlike naval power at one time--they rented their navy to anyone with the coin and their ships' "infantry" were legendary. The present Italian "naval infantry" are known as "San Marco Marines."

How do you come to that conclusion?

SS, maybe Edoardo Mori can help you here:

Eciclopedia delle Armi

His email is at the bottom left of the page.

JC

PeteM:

You mean in all your research you didn't uncover any info on the man-powered Venetian gondola trip hammer??? A lot of water resource there!!!!

No, but I failed to mention that mine has a buttplate with Armi S. Marco Gardone V.T. on it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Do I understand you to say that your 16 ga. boxlock has both the same maker's mark and the Armi San Marco butt plate?

You can eliminate Bernardelli, at least if you're talking Vincenzo. They used a stork (I think--at least some kind of large, tall bird) as a maker's mark.

Straight Shooter:

Yes to all. There's the San Marco Lion stamp on the right side of the watertable; on the barrel-flats under the right tube; a buttplate with "Armi" in larger type in the center with "S. Marco" along the top and "Gardone V.T." along the bottom. Mine has the "XX" stamp which would be the Roman numerials for 20 years after the dating stamp began in 1945.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

L. Brown, VB's trade mark is a swan, I believe. The stork would be Van Broeck of Ostend (kidding).

On a Beretta, also made in the same area, xx indicates 1964. Interestingly enough Beretta also made a Model 409, as mentioned earlier. Beretta made many trade guns during that period without the trade style being shown on the gun. However PB would always appear on the barrels and the water table. Also, the proof mark of the in-circled star with PSF under it is the definitive proof for guns with smokeless powder and is used by Proof House in both Gardone and Brescia.

Many thanks, Raimey. That's the most credible evidence, one way or the other, that I've heard on any forum so far. I'd assume from this that the 'BG' on the facing pages of the book probably stands for Brescia, Gardone. The lion motif is an easy inference for a company named Armi San Marco.

It all fits. The mysterious Italian hammer gun is unmasked!