doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shipping from individual to FFL, what is required?

If you are not a licensee, you may ship only to a licensee. It is up to you, the shipper, to be sure you are shipping to a licensee. It is absolutely possible for you to ship a firearm to a convicted felon. The only way you can be sure you are not in violation of the law, is to have a copy of the FFL in your hand, and to ship only to the address on the FFL. That should keep you out of prison.

That said, I have shipped dozens of firearms over the years and never had the FFL. Why? Because I was shipping to Briley, Wenig, Cole, etc. for repairs and modifications, all businesses known to be gunshops. Neither UPS or USPS has ever questioned me about an FFL....the counter person couldn't care less. The FFL is your assurance that you aren't breaking the law. I'm in the process of selling my first at auction and I'll definitely have an FFL before I ship.

A gazillion guns are sold on Gunbroker by private sellers. Why not just go there and look under "For Sellers", then "Sellers Tutorial" and "Firearms Shipping Guide." It has all the info you need for UPS, USPS and FedEx in one handy spot. There you'll find...

"The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensee. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements with a dealer in his state to ship the item to.
Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the licensee's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license."

Legally you as a non FFL are not required to have nor present a copy of the FFL license of the business to which you are sending the firearm to.
Again, the clerk behind the counter may see it otherwise, and having the copy sure helps.
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This answers alot of common questions...Scroll down to- Part B 'Unlicensed Persons'
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a29

Needing an FFL presumes the gun is post-1898; before the magic date it is an antique and can be shipped no different than a Beanie Baby.

(1) A modern gun needs a signed copy of the receiving dealer's FFL in the hands of the non-FFL gun-shipper to comply with the law and regs.

(2) Somewhere buried in the regulations is a provision for written notice to the USPS or UPS or FedX; I simply put a Post-it on the box saying that "This is a pre-/post-1898 long gun." I have the postmaster initial it and put it with my copy of the signed FFL. My postmaster has never asked to see the FFL; I have so much trouble with the numb-nuts at the UPS 1-800 schedule-for-pick-up number that I have sold all my UPS stock and use the USPS exclusively.

(3) The last time I looked at the regs it specifically said that a photocopy of the receiving dealers FFL had to be "signed in ink on its face." I am in the process of having a gun sent to my FFL here in Illinois from Arizona by a non-FFL; my FFL says a faxed copy is now legal, so I guess the actual inked signature on the FFL copy in the hands of the non-FFL shipper has been done away with. But he still must have a valid copy.

As I understand the logic in all this, having a copy of the FFL in the shipper's hands verifies the ship-to FFL's address, and protects the non-FFL gun-shipper from sending the gun to a non-legally-entitled person. The penalty for cutting corners can be severe. Depending on the situation it might be a good idea to call the receiving FFL to confirm delivery hours or some such, thus verifying the bona fides. If a supposed FFL will not provide a signed copy of his FFL to a non-FFL gun-shipper, then he is unfamiliar with the process, and you should get a different FFL who is up to speed. EDM

There is nothing in the BATF regs that state that a non licensee must have a copy of an FFL license in their possession before shipping out a firearm to that FFL. (It sure does help though!)

There is in the regs a rule that a common or contract carrier must be 'notified' that the parcel contains a firearm upon shipment of that parcel. In writing on the shipping bill is the obvious place but it does not state 'in writing'.
USPO is asking you if it contains one in their simple 'Does the package contain anything liquid, fragile, hazardous,etc' that they throw at you evertime you mail something. Pub52 in their regs.

Hard copy FFLs, FAXed copys and Emailed copys are all acceptable as proof as of 01/01/08.

A pre 1899 firearm may not necessarily be as easily shipped as a rare an precious beanybaby though we wish they were.

Some states (NJ for one) require ALL firearms to be transfered through an 01 FFL. They do not acknowledge the 'antique status' as put forth by the Fed regulations.

NY does not acknowledge the antique status of most any cartridge handguns (nor the C&R status of any) and ANY handgun shipped into NYS to a licensed dealer that would normally be registered in NYS, must come from another FFL.

Some local gov'ts have regs that do not allow the possession of certain firearms and in many cases do not exempt any by age.

An FFL not willing to supply a copy of his/her FFL copy to a non-licensee is not someone who is 'not up to speed' On the contrary it it someone who understands the regs as they are printed and that the copy is not needed by the nonlicensee.
BATFE agents on a compliance check will advise against such actions as it is well to keep a strict account of your license and where it goes. It is difficult enough to keep it from being used w/o your knowledge for all the copys that must be handed out by the regs w/o scattering more about.

With that said, I fully understand the position the nonlicensee is placed in when trying to legally ship a firearm. No one wants to be the odd man out and not have his bases covered. Everyone wants a copy of that license and only one person has it and doesn't have to give it to anyone other than another FFL.

I'm echoing RR's post because there are lots of FFL holders who sadly know less about the ATF rules than many of us here do. Save yourself weeding through some occasional misinformation posted here and read the rules for yourself. Safest course.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

You absolutely need to verify that the shop has a valid, up-to-date FFL. At least have them give you the number so you can check the BATF web page. But a signed in ink, FAXed or email scan is better.

Rudybollo, thanks for the great tip. I went to the FFL section that has the ez Check. Typed in the FFL number I was given by the shop I'm sending it to(I called them) and up popped their name and location. Done deal. I'm happy and confident. Thanks all. JW

I would NOT ship a modern firearm to someone who just claimed to have an FFL. My procedure is to place a copy of the FFL holders license (Faxed copies are now OK)in with the firearm I'm shipping and I will only ship to the address on the license. All my long guns go USPS having also grow tired of dealing with the numbnuts at UPS and FEDEX. I don't ever remember being asked specifically what I was shipping even when the size of the package and weight should be a dead giveaway it's a firearm.
Jim

The preceding has some really bad suggestions on how to cut corners:

Kutter says, "Nothing in BATF regs that state that a copy of the out-of-state dealer's license has to be in possession of the non-FFL shipper."

I'm looking at a FFL which says on its face:

"PURCHASING CERTIFICATION

I certify this is a true copy of a license issued to me to engage in the business specified.

____________________________________________
(Signature of Licensee)

The licensee named herein shall use a reproduction of this license to assist a transferor of firearms to verify the identity and the licensee status of the licensee as provided in 27 CFR Part 178. The signature on each reproduction must be an ORIGINAL signature."

How this "ORIGINAL signature" provision on the FFL itself is implemented now that a FFL can be faxed or e-mailed is problematical. However, the verification and certification provision can only be implemented by the sender having a copy, mailed, faxed, or e-mailed.

Also referring to the regs, 27 CFR Part 178.31 (a) "Delivery by common or contract carrier: (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in intestate commerce...in which there is any firearm..without written notice.

Subsection (d) says, "No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement..."

The guy who asked the original question was not trying to find out how to cut corners or debate technical issues with the BATF; he wanted to be beyond reproach. Someone helpfully provided an IRL to something supposed to be case on point in re: Frequently Asked Questions at "(B.) Unlicensed Persons." I have a hard copy of this as part of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, which BATF often hands out at gun shows.

My hard Copy at section (B8) says, "...A carrier must be notified that the shipment contains a firearm. [and cites 27 CFR 178.31]." These Q & A's do not supersede the regulations and the omission of mandatory written notice in the Q & A's is no defense if you fail to comply with the regs. The 178.31 reg requires a written notice at (d), which was cross-referenced and thus controls. Don't rely on Q & A's to FAQ's when there are laws and regulations.

The Internet IRL provided shows the Q & A's changed measurably in the transposition from hard copy to cyberspace, going from 4 paragraphs in my hard copy to one on the Internet, which says cryptically, "(B8) ...Federal law requires that the carrier be notified." The omission of the details of "written" notification in the Q & A's is not an invitation to ignore the Law and Regs. The regs say "written notice," and it should be obvious that making an off-hand verbal comment to someone at the post office or to your UPS driver does not comply.

My prior advice to write it on paper and get it initialed by the receiving shipper is good advice; my advice to have a FFL in hand is good advice; calling the FFL for a "heads up" and to confirm open-hours availability to receive the shipment is good advice. There is nothing about this advice that is onerous to either party; an abundance of caution is prudent and necessary to be beyond reproach in these most difficult of buy/sell transactions, given the maze of Laws and Regulations. Besides, having an in-hand FFL and a piece of paper proving notice is just good business.

The idea as stated by Kutter that "BATF agents on a compliance check will advise against such actions [providing a copy of their license to verify and assist]..." flys in the face of what is stated on the FFL itself. Maybe the part about an "ORIGINAL signature" has changed with the renewing of FFL's since 1/1/08, and the allowing of e-mail and fax copies, but if such "non-original-signature" copies are allowed now, why would the BATF tell a FFL not to provide them? And the idea that "...Everyone wants a copy of that license and only one person has it and doesn't have to give it to anyone other than another FFL." is strange in so far as the FFL's I have in my possession require the exact opposite as stated on their face and quoted above. Strange that there are so many opinions on how to avoid simple compliance. EDM

The idea as stated by Kutter that "BATF agents on a compliance check will advise against such actions [providing a copy of their license to verify and assist]..." flys in the face of what is stated on the FFL itself. Maybe the part about an "ORIGINAL signature" has changed with the renewing of FFL's since 1/1/08, and the allowing of e-mail and fax copies, but if such "non-original-signature" copies are allowed now, why would the BATF tell a FFL not to provide them? And the idea that "...Everyone wants a copy of that license and only one person has it and doesn't have to give it to anyone other than another FFL." is strange in so far as the FFL's I have in my possession require the exact opposite as stated on their face and quoted above. Strange that there are so many opinions on how to avoid simple compliance. EDM
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EDM just read some of the updates provided by the BATFE to dealers over the last few months/couple of years and you'll see the changes that have been implimented. The hard copy FFL's did & still does in fact demand an ink signiture, but now FAX and Emailed copys are acceptable between FFLs along with their 'electronicly' transmitted signitures on them.

If a hard copy of the license is still used in the exchange, then yes an original ink signiture is required on them. If the two parties have their heads in the game, they will also exchange other forms of ID to verify in a FTF dealing if you don't know the other party. Again,,too many copys floating around.
The EZCheck will verify online if you doubt in a long distance transaction but will not verify C&Rs nor Ammo Manufacturers licenses.

I don't debate that the orig posted wanted to be beyond reproach and not cut corners, that is quite obvious and commendable.
I usually see people doing things the other way around. Mailing guns w/o declaring them (long box...uhh,,Golf Clubs..), unlicensed people sending pistols by USPO, ammo in the mail, guns interstate w/o using an FFL, etc. Goes on all the time.

It's not "strange that there are so many opinions around on how to (avoid?) compliance",,,it's very simple really.

As far as what a BATFE agent will tell you about distributing your FFL copys to UNLICENSED persons for shipping purposes,,,that is what I was told by the BATFE agent during the last 2 compliance checks I had, the most recent 3 weeks ago. No prompting of the issue on my part. I'm also sure it will vary as all opinions do from agent to agent, but it has always been my way of dealing with it too..Sure I have provided such to some folks I know well, but that I can keep track of. Others I know hand them out like candy to get business.

The UPS gets their notice of a 'gun in parcel' in writting on the shipping bill either at the counter or if you have pickup service on the daily shipping ledger,.. The USPO gets theirs in writting when they ask if "there is anything liquid, fragile, hazardous, etc" in the package. That's the cue to let 'em know that there is a firearm inside (falls under the USPO heading of Pub52 items) and a written statement is made of their likeing. They usually don't even reallize that one is needed and don't know what to do with it anyway, but at least you've done your part.

The only time an FFL is required to provide a copy of the FFL license is to another FFL (for an acquisition), or to a LE agency/agent. There is nothing strange nor confusing about that in my statement. An FFL may choose on their own to provide a copy to a nonlicensee (for ease of shipping as in this case) but they are not required to.

It's not always easy to stay abreast of all the rules and regs as they are constantly changing and will probably be even more of a challenge in the next few years. But if you want to stay in business and not become the focus of an investigation, unwitting or not,, you keep as up to date as you can and try to keep track of everything that goes on.