doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Advice on first Drilling, please?

TBK,
Colt/Sauer is a think of the past (but still available used), Sauer also quit making Drillings. I think most of the current Drilling makers - Krieghoff, Heym, Blaser, Merkel, Zoli, etc. - will make one in this caliber combination, but I would try to find a used one (a much less expensive approach).
Inserts can be used in any Drilling, new or used, and there is no need for them to be made by the original factory.
And another point. If your interest is primarely big game hunting you might consider a double rifle Drilling. One is made in France by Mathelon, with a 20g tube under sxs rifle configuration. Some others are made with two different rifle calibers (and even with 3 rifle barrels). As long as your pocket allows it, Drillings come in unlimitred configurations...
-Jani

What dangerous game do you intend to hunt?

Cabelas has a Merkel 96K in 12x12x30-06
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...requestid=13441

If you want an insert to convert a shotgun barrel for rifle use:
http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

Pete

While I love the idea of a drilling, any hope for an accurate .223 insert for long range small targets is pushing envelope beyond usefullness in my opinion. What sort of precision is to be expected is the real question. I hope to hear opinions but would really like to see performance first hand. The 223 would need its own sighting system (on and off) too.

My guess is that a 5 shot group shot at 200 yards would be bigger than a fox but I've been wrong before.

Serious fun on a prairie dog town requires a 1.5" grouping at 300 yards. This is opinion, not fact.

As one of the strong believers in the drilling as a practical hunting weapon, and as one who hunts his combination guns regularly, I thought I would weigh in as well.

If cost is no object, then one of the "American" drillings shooting a .270 or 30-06 is certainly an option. My experience is that the more American the gun, the more expensive it is, and often the "clunkier." A particularly blunt instrument is the Colt/Sauer with beavertail forend and 12x12 tubes. Slap a scope on it, and mount an insert barrell and you have something that starts to feel like a crew-served weapon.

I am also not a fan of rimless rounds in any break-open gun. The various extractor systems have been improved over the years, and you are unlikely to ever have your life in the balance, but I have seen one Commie Sauer jump the rim during extraction, and it took a trip to an experienced smith to get things back in order. You potentially can save a bit of money and have a great rifle round by opting for one of the classic European rimmed cartridges such as the 7x57R, 6.5x57R, or 8x57R. Ammo is readily available over the web, and they'll deliver to your door.

You also need a scope. If you don't want one, then you really don't need a rifle caliber like the ones you have mentioned. With the exception of Sempert and Krieghoff, and the post-war Krieghoff, that almost always means a claw mount (the older Krieghoffs used a proprietary mount). I am unaware of any EAWs which work on a drilling. A couple of people in the country will install claws for around $1200-$1400. If you find an older gun it may already have claw bases (when GI's "liberated" them they tended to overlook the small leather cases elsewhere in the closet which contained the scope). J.J. Perodeau at Champlin Arms will make a set of rings to fit most bases for around $800.

Insert barrels are a neat addition. I have never used anything as hot as a .223. I do have a .22 mag, .22lr, and .22 hornet. The inserts have adjustments which allow them to be shifted to the point of aim of the scope. Site in the regular rifle normally and then adjust the insert barrel to the scope. Thus, within the point blank range of the lighter caliber, both shoot to the same point of aim. Very neat when a fox comes drifting along. Also, by shifting between rifle and shot, one has a set trigger for both rifles. Very, very neat. If you shoot Breneke slugs, you may also find the left barrel shoots remarkably well to the open sights at fifty yards. Most were regulated to a Breneke of one type or the other and one of my guns will throw a right left two inch group at fifty yards with boring consistancy. And no, you neither want nor need rifled choke tubes.

Finally, those who question the accuracy of drillings probably have not shot them very much. Near MOA with the right bullet is the norm. I suspect it has something to do with the rigidness of those supporting shotgun tubes. All the more reason to have a detachable scope to take advantage of the inherent accuracy of those high energy rifle rounds.

Don't turn your back on the sixteen if you find the right gun otherwise. Like the rifle, you can get all the sorts of shells you would fire in that twelve bore delivered to your door. While I agree the 12 is more versatile, the sixteen makes a much more elegant package.

Lastly, Bob Jones is the best person in the country from whom to buy a drilling. The gun will be in perfect operating order, and exactly as described. Look forward to hearing what you get. Waidman's Heil, Joe

"within the point blank range of the lighter caliber"

Is quite a far piece from.....

"a .223 Remington insert for one of the shotgun barrels (long range small game) with an adapter for a .22 LR (quail and plinking)."

I don't question the accuracy of a drilling but do question the accuracy of a rifle insert.

Bob Jones can answer more question about drillings than most dealer and I have never heard a complaint about a deal with him. If you are interested in finding a good drilling he could be very valuable to talk to. JMHO Pick his brain.

But the recomendation to stay away from rimless cartidges I comletly agree with. Metric rim cartidges will be easier to find and keep shooting but stay away froma few of the older fringe cartridges unless you like spending a lot of time working on brass, sizing brass, necking brass, reloading, ect... Factory brass is not to under valued in these old guns.

Instead of a Drilling, you really should look at a Vierling. From your description, it will come closer to meeting your expectations. Bob Jones has one, 16ga x 16ga x 22 long x 8x57JR, http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4083V

Pete

Bob Jones also has a bock drilling: 16X.270X.22 lr That thing would do me for the rest of my life. And it is beautiful, tho spendy. I salivate over that websight every day.

I second Joe Taylor's recommendation for the 16 guage. It will be lots cheaper, it looks better, it will usually be lighter, and good ammo is widely available. There are probably ten times as many 16's on the market as 12's or 20's. The hunt for the gun is a big part of the fun. Good luck. mike

Thanks again to all for the continuing education.

This world of cartridges, metric and non-metric, rimless and rim is new to me. So I really do appreciate all the advice.

In terms of game and such, I plan to use the drilling for my "backyard" hunts in Hawaii when I get back there (now working in Singapore). The idea is mainly that I'm used to carrying my two piece longbow + arrows + quiver in a neat 36 inch long package on my back. I'd put it together for the final stalk. So the idea of carrying a heavy Drilling in two pieces then putting it together when needed appeals a lot.

I would mostly be using the shotgun for a range of birds from quail up to turkey size (maybe Canada goose in New Zealand) as well as buck shot for deer, goat, and boar. Slugs for boar, feral bison or cow are helpful when a situation pops up (and one never knows when an invitation to do a cull hunt for water buffalo in Australia comes up! Ha! Ha!). But it's good to have a rifle when a goat, pig, feral bull or bison, etc. appears accross a valley (hence the 30-06 or 8 x 57R). It's also fun to have a longish range varmint round for the rabbits, hares, rats, mongooses, etc. (for which perhaps a .22 Hornet would be better than a .223?)

So far, based on your advice, my thoughts are drifting to a short barrel 12 x 12 with choke tubes (ungainly yes, but beautiful in its own chunky way! Ha! I weigh around 275 pounds and am very top heavy [fat head?] so I haven't had too many problems with recoil so far) over a 8 x 57R (where does one get cheap practice ammo?) plus removable scope with inserts for a .22 Hornet (or .223?). But please do feel free to offer more advice. I'm still not really confident on what I'm doing.

Another two insert questions:

a) I notice that makers like Krieghoff advertise factory inserts which convert one of the shotgun barrels into a big caliber rifle barrel matching the drilling rifle barrel. They claim this creates a sort of bock drilling / "double rifle" plus. They seem pretty confident of the accuracy of the big caliber insert. Is this confidence warranted? Can a big caliber rifle insert into a shotgun barrel shoot about as well as the drilling rifle barrel? If so, how about a high power, light caliber like the .223?

b) when using a rifle insert in a shotgun barrel, do the shot shell extractors extract the insert when opened? Or is there some way that the extractors grab the smaller rifle shell?

Hope to be contacting dealers like Bob Jones soon!

Any and all comments would be welcome!

In practical terms they're good only to about 100m, or effective range of iron sighted rifle barrel which depends on shooter's skills. You can shoot further with scoped one, but what happens if grouse flushes? That rifle barrels is not going to help you in shotgun only hunting zone. In short, they're not as versatile as folks claim them to be.
Want pro-grade DGR? Wait a while longer and buy Ruger Model 77 'Hawkeye Alaskan'.
Those Gery complications look good next to Christmas tree decorated with those hand-painted German ornaments. Cukoo clock completes that ensamble nicely, you will not get an argument on that front from me.
I would try to find 20x20/.30-30Win with 'Dural' frame if I really wanted one.