doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com .410 question please

Parker and Hunter Arms both introduced their .410s in 1926.



This ad appeared in 1928, but it is not certain Baker Gun Co. (then owned by Folsom) ever made a .410



What was going on in the mid-1920s that caused US makers to produce .410s? Only an attempt to expand market share and some "me too ism"? When did Ithaca first offer a .410? What about the other makers?
Rapidly becoming squishy minds want to know Thanks!

Pete, I have heard of one or two Baker 410s from the period of the ad you posted. I have never owned one and believe someone told me they were actually Crescent designs, rather than Baker and only the Baker name was on the gun. I would love to be prooved wrong.

Ithaca, in their 1926 catalog list the .410 as available. Their March 1, 1926 price list does include the .410 being available in all grades. The field grade price to dealer was $30.49; the suggested retail price was $37.50. In their Lefever Arms Co. flyer dated 23 Sep 1926 they indicate that a Lefever Nitro Special was available in .410 priced at $29.00. In their 1927 Lefever flyer they indicate a price of $28.25. There are rumors that Ithaca produced a .410 in the later Flues model, but I have never spoken with anyone who has ever seen one.

Ithaca introduced their .410-bore at the same time, 1926, with the introduction of the NID. I think it was around 1926 when the ammo companies lengthened the .410-bore shell from the old 2-inch shell with 3/10 ounce of shot to a 2 1/2 inch shell with 3/8 ounce of shot.

With the introduction of the NID Ithaca quit cataloguing the 28-gauge, though they did continue to make some. Ithaca added the 28-gauge back to their catalogue offerings in 1932 when Western introduced their Super-X 28-gauge load in a 2 7/8 inch shell with 3/4 ounce of shot.

VERY interesting and thank you Rick. Corporate espionage or just some loose lipped gun execs yaking after a round of golf and more rounds of drinks??
Interesting that the Ithaca NID Skeet Special was advertised in the July 1926 National Sportsman, only 2 months after the game was named! Was the Ithaca Gun Co. tipped off in advance of the announcement in order to accelerate production of a designation skeet gun? Hunter Arms didn't get a skeet gun out for 2 more years, but managed to borrow Foster's logo for the left lockplate, headed in the other direction



BTW: our local library branch is getting me Ron Gabriel's American & British 410 Shotguns

A quick visual scan of the records indicates Ithaca shipped their first 410 NID in July of 1926. I have copies of letters indicating dealers originally ordered a fair quantity of 28 gauges but then cancelled most of them. Hence, not much market interest and no mention of them in the early NID catalogs. They had been making 28 gauge Flues guns for a long time(circa 1912 ish but that's from memory, could be a bit off) A quick visual scan of the records spotted a few 28 gauges shipped during September of 1926.
A ton of 12/30s followed by 12/28 followed by 16/28, 12/32. 20/28 etc. 410s and 28s were at the bottom of the sales/demand chart.

Am not sure what Ithaca gun/model the 1926 National Sportsman's article referred to since the NID had just been introduced and it was not until the mid 1930's that Ithaca brought out the New Ithaca Skeet Model. Perhaps it was simply a marketing ploy to sell guns based on the new sport?

Walter. Were Ithaca 410s made with barrel lenghts other than 26"? All I have seen is 26".
Bob Jurewicz

Researcher, I would put the date for the 2 1/2" .410 cartridge a little before that. As far as I can ascertain, at least on this side of the Atlantic, it came about via BSA making a cheap bolt action single .410 built on a Lee Speed .303 action that they re-barrelled and restocked; Kynoch then made the 2 1/2" cartridge for it. I think that it was first introduced in 1913. I don't know when U.S. manufacturers took it up but I would suspect that it would not be long after. I used to own one of those old BSA's but foolishly parted with it many years ago. Lagopus.....

I have a 1914 Midland catalog. It offers .410s available in the new 2 1/2" cartridge at no extra charge if requested. So, I'd say 1913 is a good estimate.
The guns are listed in the For Ladies and Youth section of the catalog.
I have a no name British .410 double with sidelever and central hammers. It weighs in at 4lbs 2oz and sports a whopping 15 7/8" straight stock and 28" steel bbls.
There are Birmingham proofs with the 410 C in the triangle. It is not nitro-proofed. The SN is 76. The UK guys tend to believe that lacking the nitro-proof is typically pre-1896 when nitro became optional. It is definitely pre-1905 when nitro became mandatory. (If memory serves.)

Joe