doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Does anyone REALLY believe the.............

The hardest part of the entire article for me to believe is that all those mentioned Winchesters were "Over Engineered". Good guns Yes, but exactly what is "Over Engineered" anyway. Even the much maligned '93 Mauser buried its case up to the extractor groove while the cone breech of the model 70 left virtually the entire solid portion of the case head hanging out in the open. no they don't have a reputation of blowing off case heads, but the Mauser design certainly has a higher built-in margin of safety in that aspect. The Browning designed rear locking system of the Lever action Winchester has proven reliable for the cartridges for which they were chambered but if modern higher intensity cartridges are tried to be used then case stretching becomes a problem, "Over Engineered" Hardly!!. Etc, Etc. Over Engineered & Ergonomic are two highly overused terms IMNSHO.

PS; Look at all the Black Powder proofed Damascus bbl'd guns which have many years later passed Nitro Proof, perhaps they were all "Over Engineered".

"Thirdly, Keith's own son has commented in print about his father's eyesight. The man was raised in wide open spaces, spent great amounts of time there, and was noted for his game-spotting ability by contemporary accounts: far beyond the ordinary folks perception."

No question about that, John. My peers in our village who spent their lives at sea had extraordinary vision. My brother, a marine engineer who spent his working years in ships and oil rigs, could identify birds I could barely see. I saw a pilot friend, a New Brunswick pistol champion, hit a popcan with a .45 on his first shot on a 100-yard rifle range.

It's interesting for me to see how passionate some people are about this. I would never day that what is discribed didn't happen, I can assure you that there was a great deal of both luck and skill involved if it did. It is NOT a repeatable shot. If you can't do it over and over, there is a certain amount of luck.

By the way, anyone who has shot a pistol at long range with iron sights knows that good distance vision is not an advantage for accuracy, good vision at the front sight is what makes for an accurate shot with iron sights on either a rifle or a pistol.

As a past AAA NRA Metalic Silhouette Pistol shooter, I've shot a lot of fairly long shots with a pistol. I won't question Mr Keith's shot, but I have enough experience with long range shooting to know there was a certain amount of luck. I've shot out 2 spotters at 1,000 yards with iron sights on a rifle and a bunch at 600. Shooting a spotter out means putting 2 bullets in the same hole since a .30 caliper spindle holds the spotter in place. I could tell myself that those shots were skill and I admit that skill played a part, but unless I can do it every time, it's luck.


As I said, If you can't do it over and over, it isn't all skill.

I have a dim recollection that D.K.M Bell used a .256 (probably a Mannlicher) to shoot either cormorants or pelicans on the wing at well over 100 yards when using up a supply of defective ammunition. He was hitting about one out of two. An Italian visitor supposedly asked where Bell had gotten a shotgun with such a great range.

Birds on the wing with a rifle can be done, given enough skill, eyesight, ammunition, practice and a safe backstop. Not by me, I hasten to add, but there are lots of other things I can't do either that can and have been done by those more able.

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell. It was cormorants.

I should not do things from my (obviously failing) memory. Thanks for the correction, Greg.

I should not do things from my (obviously failing) memory. Thanks for the correction, Greg.