doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Crown Steel Tubes

The mark looks like an eagle w/ "VT" over a crucible. Interesting, very interesting and for now the best guess for "T" is for tool steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pete, its kind of a chunky C and the mark of Joe Scaglione who proofed the barrels. What's is a mystery to me is there is no serial number as the barrels were never fitted. All guns in the proof books were recorded by serial number.

Sporting Life Feb. 26, 1898
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_23/SL3023023.pdf
The Hunter Arms Company, of Fulton, N. Y., makers of the L. C. Smith gun, have made a somewhat radical change in their guns recently.
The following was received, which is being sent out to the trade:
Fulton, N. Y., Feb. 10. Our motto, "We lead, others follow," is again to be brought prominently before the public. After seriously considering the demands of the shooters we have concluded to make the following changes in the L.C. Smith guns for 1898.
Our famous Crown Steel barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description. Our policy is always to improve our product when ever and wherever we can, hence instead of reducing our price on the No. 2 gun we have greatly improved its quality, and offer our patrons a vastly superior gun at former price. In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade. This statement expresses fully the status of our nitro steel, and in offering these new barrels you may rest assured we do so only after being fully convinced as to their superior quality.
Both Crown and Nitro steel barrels will have our trade mark stamped on them. In this mark you have our guarantee that they are genuine, and just what we represent them to be.
Hoping that we may have the pleasure of your favors with orders for samples of these new guns and assuring same our best attentions always, we remain, yours very truly,
HUNTER ARMS CO.

Apparently circa 1904 there were American import houses as well as barrel agents for sourcing Belgian tubes: http://books.google.com/books?id=3W1JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=belgian+gun+barrels&lr= .

"The barrel is not paid for, however, until it has passed the usual test at the Goverment proving ground and bears the stamp of perfection." Under Manufactories and House Workers at line 13: http://books.google.com/books?id=yt3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA328&dq=belgian+gun+barrels&lr= .

Can anyone say if the American import houses required the "Government Test" or not?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

The question is would Belgium allow export of barrels without proofing? Go here and scroll done to mark #36 http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html You will see that in 1924 the rule was established to allow export of unproved barrels to a foreign proof house. Previous to this, no mark was required. So in effect unproofed barrels could be exported. What other countries allowed or required, I could not say. Add in the fact that the Belgians had heavily lobbied Congress to lower the tariff on "barrels in the rough" and we have very low cost barrels available.

Would an American importer request to have barrels proofed, thus adding to their cost?

Walt,

You are very kind. Thanks.

Pete

PeteM:

Thanks for properly rephrasing my question. I know tube makers were a proud lot, but was it assumed that since a similar tube produced at a similar time passed proof that all the non-proofed tubes possibly could pass proof also? Then again the end user probably just wanted a tool. Do you think that if the end user had been made aware of the aspect of proofing and that the tube maker was actually the one who applied the type of steel stamp, that they might have purchased a higher grade? Or I guess it was just simple economics.

But it was definitely all about the Benjamins when it comes to the Export/Import Commission Houses and Agents. I've searched and searched for a list of import houses as I think info may be found surrounding the Export/Import Commission Houses of New York. Some sources give around 400 houses in New York circa 1900 and others give 600 as per a reference below. From what I understand about it there were 2 options for importing a product: Export/Import Commission House and Agent. The latter was sort of a cash & delayed carry with the imported products pre-paid. I think the Export/Import Commission House has a physical location in the country of origin of the product. Here's some info on Export/Import Commission Houses:

”We have spoken from the American point of view and have generally referred to New York City as the type of a market center; but it should not be supposed that export commission houses are not found in other countries. In fact, London is the real home of the world’s commission houses. Here are found five times as many as in New York City. All the bit continental market cities, such as Hamburg, Rotterdam, Antwerp, are each as well supplied as is New York City, which has about six hundred export commission houses.

There is little in the ‘modus operandi’ of the export commission house that is difficult to understand. They do business only with foreign houses whom they know, and, as a rule, ship goods subject to draft attached to documents or against confirmed credits. In some cases where the export house is also an import house, the exchange of commodities permits the commission firm to arrange the financial settlement in a different manner.

The advantages and disadvantages, both to the buyer and seller, offered by this method of distributing goods may be briefly stated. The advantages to the foreign customer in dealing through a commission house may be summed up as follows: (1) He can forward all orders under one cover instead of dealing with a large number of separate manufacturing concerns; (2) he receives his shipments on one bill of lading; (3) his payments are to one person and not to many; (4) a foreign firm may get longer credit extensions from a commission house, that is, the exporter being acquainted with the trade and having a wider connection among foreign banks, would not hesitate to grant longer term drafts….” from http://books.google.com/books?id=cHwpAAA...ew+york&lr=

Possibly an Export/Import Commission list may be found in the "Exporters’ Encyclopaedia" and this 1921 version is one of the few that I've found that can be viewed: http://books.google.com/books?id=NKFrBJ1...s+encyclopaedia I haven't taken the time to download it but it may have some interesting info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm going to attempt to expand this thread yet again instead of starting a new thread. Does anyone know if Parker's Vulcan Steel tubes were made at Vulcan Iron Works, Bradford, England operated by the Thwaites Brothers??

And on another note did Providence Tool Company of Rhode Island make tubes for Winchester or did Winchester source Providence Tool for tubes?


Last, who might have sourced the American Gun Barrel Company for tubes: http://books.google.com/books?id=yQsWAAA...ew+haven,+conn. (see Captain William Henry Avis) ??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is a picture of the "Crown Steel " Barrels on my 1903 Vintage Ithaca Crass # 6

Thanks for the pic. So was it applied after the top rib was in place?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The way it looks, it was engraved after the rib was on.