doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sauer 16ga pre-war w/flats pics etc.

There is little odd when it comes to German arms. There are examples in 261xxx that were proved in 1938 was well as 122xxx proved in 1928. After a piece of metal was issued a serial number, it could remain in stock until an order was filled.

If Kiwi's has "Sauer und Sohn" with only overhanging scears, then it is going to be the continental version of the Model 180E, which is a Model 8E.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As to it being a Model 180E, the "E" will mean ejector and mine is an extractor. My shotgun is a Model VIII. A better grade of this model was known as the Model 18 a.k.a. the "Masterpiece Shotgun". These were worked up in a seprate part of the factory and craftsmanship takes time, which is probably why the serial numbers and proofing dates vary somewhat from the rest of the herd.

Von Lengerke and Detmold of NY (the name on your Sauer top rib), sold fine shotguns but seem to have been brought out by Abercrombie & Fitch in 1928. That's not to say that A&F may not have kept using the von Lengerke name, (that I don't know). It could be also that the shotgun you have was already on consignment but took several years for the full order to be completed and delivered and the von Lengerke company in the mean time transfered to A&F. The latter company would have simply sold it along with Francotte and other brands they handled.

A Model XVIII(18) would not have been based on or made from an VIII(8) as the Model 18, or Meisterwerk, had both upper and lower scears while the Model 8 only had upper overhanging scears. The Model 18 was based on the Model 17, which was based on the Model 14, which was based on the Model 11. Sauer was in the business of turning out hunting longarms and didn't have top master craftsmen sitting idle awaiting the next Masterpiece order. Now there may have been a room where a master craftsman, who also had other duties, viewed the Model 18 to see if it was up to par. Instead like many, many other makers they subcontracted the work to master craftsmen in the area. For example engravers Franz Schilling and Richard Werner were 2 whom Sauer sourced for brilliantly executed engraving. Richard Werner began his stint as an engraver at the Berlin Mint, and had August Heym as one of his apprentices.

When Sauer forged a frame it received a serial number and it held a position in the source stock until an order was placed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Perhaps I should have expressed that differently: The Model 18 was of generally similar outward form to the basic Model 8 but was built to a higher standard and a somewhat different spec. But I don't think the Masterpieces were necessarily just outwork as the book JP Sauer & Sohn by Peter Arfmann and Rolf Kallmeyer (Peter Arfmann Verlag 2004) states of the Model 18:

"The best specialists at the factory worked on these masterpieces and sometimes also at home. Action maker and master lock maker Paul Werner was one of these. He worked with two assistants in a periferal area of the factory. In the workshop they set up there, far from the hustle and bustle, these men produced the finest locks".

Paul Werner, son of Richard Werner and an apprentice of Richard Werner, did indeed work at Sauer for a short stint. But he was working there probably as a part of his Journeyman program due to the fact that a Master could make more money as a subcontractor in the rucksack gunsmith network. Usually the owners/masters of a firm kept a steady stream of Journeymen thru their workshop. That is if the Journeymen were going up the ladder and not just widening the overall group. Otherwise the master craftsman made the transition from make to firearms merchant and/or overseer/quality control. And if he didn't have any heirs or assigns, his course was set and he became a firearms merchant possibly with a small repair type facility. H.A. Lindner is a fine example of this. And yes women were involved, involved in ownership but I can't say that there was a master craftswoman??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Why is mine a 180E? What does the O of 180 mean?

Thanks alot guys for your input.

It's a 180E(one eight zero) because of VL&D's numbering scheme: http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=999 . I really haven't researhed why the retailers numbered how they did(probably originally based on price??). Purchase either the VL&D 1927-1928 or the next offering and yours will be the Model 180 Sauer.

I'm curious if Paul Werner worked on the Sauer sidelocks and was responsible for the late Sauer sidelock offerings?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ellenbr, that cornell site is a gem. Got to make an order there.

I scanned the contents of all the A&F catalogues. They don't offer any catalogues between 1921-28 but the 29' thru 1939 had the 380,300,280,180 and 100s of Sauers. The 41' catalogue had no Sauers probably because of the war. Didn't mention VL&D on any of the Sauer offerings but mentioned VL&D Francottes up until 33'. No 34' catalogue.

Von Lengerke(attorney from another post) and Detmold commenced importing Sauer examples circa 1924. VL & D was absorbed/purchashed by Abercrombie & Fitch in 1929 so you might want to have a gander there. Well, apparently I didn't fully read your post as you've already done that.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I can't say that this is true for a couple of reasons:

1. Whether each tube is lightly choked or heavily choked, if there is a constriction greater than 0.2mm, then the tube should bear the "Crown" over "W". This mark notes that the choked tube was subjected to an additional proof vs. a tube without the mark, which the diameter is measured at the muzzle.

2. The stamp of "Eagle" coupled with "Crown" over "S" noted the smoothbore tube experienced the 1st or preliminary black powder proof. A tube had to fall within 2 categories: rifled or smoothbore. If the tube was rifled, then one will see an "Eagle" coupled with a "Crown" over "G" and if smooth, then the "Crown" over "S" accompanies the "Imperial Eagle". Post 1939 when semi-smokeless wasn't readily available, the combination of "Eagle" "Crown" over "U" was used. In East Germany both marks of "Crown" over "S" and "Crown" over "U" accompanied by the Imperial "Eagle" took a sort of hiatus or sabbatical from 1945 - 1950 as both East and West Germany adopted a material proof, which at some point could have been just an inspection. West Germany went their own way in 1950 and continued the divergence in 1952 with vastly different marks. East Germany returned to the old ways in 1950 and continued to use the Imperial "Eagle" accompanied by the "Crown" over "G" for rifled & "Crown" over "S" for scatterguns as the 1st black powder proof until circa 1970. I regularly use a BUHAG and have observed several other East German double from the mid to late 1950s to 1960s and the mark of "Eagle" "Crown" over "S" is present on the tubes. Past 1970 for now I really can't say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse