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Joined: Nov 2006
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Quote:
I don't reload.

What low-recoil loads with 3/4 oz. or 7/8 oz of shot would yall reccommend?


Look at the Fiocchi low-recoil training loads. 1200fps at 6,000psi.

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Originally Posted By: Dingelfutz
Stallones,


Remember that patterns all follow a Rayleigh distribution (very similar to the normal/bell curve distribution), the classic rifle/artillary/bombing dispersion distribution.

Let's say that we are dealing with 80% patterns as baselines for 1 oz, 7/8 oz, and 3/4 oz loads. If hard shot is used, such pattern percentages are extremely common, especially from full-choked barrels. All chokes with all shot loads and shot sizes will throw 80% (within a 30" circle) patterns at some range. Keep in mind that the heavier the shot load the more pieces of shot in that 80% pattern.

0ne-ounce loads that generate 80% patterns will, theoretically, place exactly the same number of pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards as a 1 1/8-ounce load that generates 71%. Note that a smaller percentage implies a larger pattern diameter, which allows more aiming error angle. Empirical results tend to be consistent with this estimate. A long-yardage handicap target generally stands very little chance in a 71% 1 1/8 oz's pattern, unless the pattern is extremely "patchy" or "holey". Exactly the same claim can, therefor, be made for the patterns thrown by good-quality 1 oz loads, even when "large" (for target loads) shot is used. In fact, it is not at all uncommon for 1 oz loads to "throw" 7 1/2 shot even better than all but the best 1 1/8 os loads (possibly due to less shot deformation and/or shorter shotstrings?). Relative advantages to the 1 1/8 oz loads: More shot (than perhaps necessary) and a (false?) sense of security for shooters who remain convinced that they need "all those soldiers". Relative disadvantages to the 1 1/8 oz loads: More expense, more noise and recoil, with their negative effects on the shooter, and more difficulty obtaining pattern per centages that are equivalent to those which are more easily obtained with lighter shot charges.

Similarly, 80% patterns of 7/8 oz loads and 3/4 oz loads theoretically will yield patterns that are equivalent to approximately 62% and 60% of 1 1/8 oz loads, respectively. See note above on lower % pattern diameter. Again, empirical results tend to support such estimates. Such "modified choke" patterns can reach out a long way. International trap shooters, who shoot 24 gram loads, routinely break targets on second barrel shots that are taken at ranges that are pretty close to those of 27 yard line handicap trap shots. At the very least, these "mini loads" ought to be more than adequate for all but the most demanding 16-yard and doubles shots, and this would be true even before the loads were "tricked up" using lighter shot and faster velocities. The "advantages" of 1 1/8-oz loads are beginning to look pretty small, aren't they?

Oh, about "smaller patterns"; maybe not, at least as a general rule. Over 20 years ago, Don Zutz demonstrated that, at least as often as not, there are next to no differences in the diameters of modified choke and full choke patterns at 40 yards. It takes statistical analysis to really see the difference in effective diameter of similar patterns. Full and modified patterns are identical in distribution and diameters with a difference of about 5 - 10 yards. The main differences have to do with the number of pellets in the pattern, especially in the patterns' "cores". There really is not "core" to a pattern; shot per square inch increases according to the Rayleigh distribution in an orderly, analog fashion. It would seem that the need for "more accurate aiming" might be located more often between shooters' ears than it is out where the targets fly. Depending on the difference between shot sizes and loads, chokes, and ranges, the allowable aiming error difference can be small or large.

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Good Topic.
I'm a big believer in 7/8ths and 1.0 oz. loads for double guns for Skeet and Double-Gun Sporting Clays. For most other sports however, the 1 1/8 oz. load does have the advantage of simply more pellets. There is no getting away from it.
If you want to be on the top podium, in Trap and 12 gauge Skeet, the 1 1/8 oz. loads have been the ones to use. I don't know if there has ever been an ATA Grand Champion or NSSA World Champion (in 12 gauge), that has used a 1.0 oz. load or smaller.
Part of it is clearly tradition or inertia on the part of the shooters themselves. I don't doubt the math discussed above, but the empirical evidence would indicate that something other than math is at play in all of those championships being won with 1 1/8 oz. loads.
Personally, I'm not shooting for a podium position any more and the advantages, to me, of the 1.0 oz and smaller loads is very real in terms of recoil.
The International shooters obviously do very well with the lighter charges, but usually at high velocity, which somewhat negates the recoil benefit.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the many 1.0 oz. and lighter offerings of B&P. I've been very pleased with several of their shells.

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The "Math" says that "All else being Equal" the range at which various loads will put the same number of pellets on target is proportional to the Sq Root of number of pellets.
The catch of course is that "All other things" are not always equal.

The bottom line though is "IF" a lighter charge gives an equal effective range it has to do so by giving a tighter pattern, thus less margin for aiming error.

The "Inconsistency" of thinking along these lines though has never failed to amaze me. So many think the small charges from a small bore as a .410 or 28 will "Kill as Far" as a 12 but you have to point closer, while at the same time they think that 10 or 8 gauge guns have simply "Fantastic" killing ranges which a mere 12ga cannot come close to, due to their large "Holes" down the bbl.


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Rocketman,

My knowledge of the Rayleigh Distribution is a bit vague, admittedly. However, if my understanding of the distribution is in any way correct, shotgun patterns at distance tend not to follow such distributions, especially in the cases of tighter chokes. As "Gough Thomas" points out, shotgun patterns tend to "trumpet out" as they approach their maximum extended ranges.

My comments were based on 80% patterns at 40 yards. I assumed that this would have been understood. Yes, all loads will pattern 80% at some distances and heavier shot charges will have more pellets in their 80% patterns than lighter shot charges will. So what?

I guess my attempt to make my point was unclear. Smaller pattern percentages DO NOT necessarily indicate smaller pattern diameters. Zutz demonstrates this fact when he compared modified and full choke patterns and "Gough Thomas" takes this to comparisons between IC and FC patterns. Differences between patterns thrown by various chokes are very often differences in the densities of pattern cores rather than pattern diameters.

[Full disclosure: My computation of the relative pattern per centages for 3/4 ounce loads should have been 53.33%, not 60%. To extend my analysis, if 85% patterns are used as a baseline, 1-ounce loads "score" 75.55%, 7/8-ounce loads "score" 66.11%, and 3/4-ounce loads "score" 63.75%, relative to 1 1/8-ounce loads.]

There is not a "core" to patterns? Really? This would be news to a whole lot of shooters who patterned their guns and were able to detect and analyze often large variations in pattern center density. The "aiming error" comment is accurate.

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Tight chokes, small bores and light loads have always been fun for me. Do they lower the probabilty of a hit? Sure. If hitting as much as possibly is your only goal, go big bore and big load. That's not my goal. My goal is to have fun. Everyone can chose what makes their shooting/hunting more fun. This is America. I chose small bores and sometimes light loads in large bores. I have a cabinet with a shelf full of 5/8 oz 12ga shells about 1 3/4" long. Great fun on the quail, dove and pigeons. Best pattern I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Tight chokes, small bores and light loads have always been fun for me. Do they lower the probabilty of a hit? Sure. If hitting as much as possibly is your only goal, go big bore and big load. That's not my goal. My goal is to have fun. Everyone can chose what makes their shooting/hunting more fun. This is America. I chose small bores and sometimes light loads in large bores. I have a cabinet with a shelf full of 5/8 oz 12ga shells about 1 3/4" long. Great fun on the quail, dove and pigeons. Best pattern I've ever seen.


Man! The shot charges in those 5/8-ounce 12 gauge shot charges must really be "square"! Are those shells "commercial" (if so, made by whom)or your reloads (data?)?

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They're made by Aguila and are about $8 a box of 20 now. I bought a bunch when they were on sale. I think "square" as it pertains to this load is an understatement. I think they're "flat". Like I said, best pattern I've ever seen. The yuk, yuk is that you can really mess with the smallbore guys when they catch you "overgunning" shooting your 12g at dove/quail and raz you. Then you pull a shell out and the laughter and amazement starts.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowsePr...g=653***9217***

Last edited by Chuck H; 09/18/09 06:39 PM.
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Chuck,

I'll have to admit that these shells are cute little devils! Based on some British writing, it is almost surprising that these rounds pattern as well as they do. 2-inch 12 gauge cartridges have traditionally been though of as being problematic if they are fired in in 2 1/2-inch or longer chambers. It appears that "cup" OP wads have laid that concern to rest.

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Quote:
those 5/8-ounce 12 gauge shot charges must really be "square"!

A "Square load" definition is somewhat dependent on who is doing the defining. The one I feel is most correct is that the length of the shot column in the bore is equal to its diameter. In 12ga this gives an approximate 1 1/16oz load. Thus the extremely popular 12ga loads in days of yore of 1oz & 1 1/8oz straddle the Sq load. Loads for the smaller bores were seldom loaded "Square" but more often had a column length similar to the 12ga. A Sq load for the 28 by above definition would be about 6/10 (0.60) oz. (Note these loads were primarily developed to give desired ballistics at acceptable presures for the burn rate of available powders, thus the similar column lengths) If you check popular shot wts of older shells you will find they run very close to being proportionate to the Square of the bore dia.

Others have defined a Sq load as an equivelent wt to a round ball, but personally I would simply call this a round ball equivelent load, not a Sq one. Loads meeting this definition can be found by simply dividing 16 by the ga number thus for 12ga is 1 1/3oz & for 28ga 0.57oz or about 9/16oz.

I have read a lot of "Gun Writers" who put great stock in the load being Square, but can't recall ever seeing any "Real Balistician" give any weight to it.

The most hillarious thing I ever read on sq loads was a writer extolling the virtues of the 28ga because of its Sq Load. He proceded to give the rd ball theory & rightly dived 16/28 & came up with .57. He then stated this "Showed Conclusively" the 3/4oz load in the 28 was square. Don't know if he was totally dislexic or so mathamatically ignorant he just didn't know that .57 & .75 are nowhere close to being equal, in spite of using the same two digits, "OR" if he thought all his readers were that ignorant.


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