doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frenchie Ideal thing....odd firing pin placement..

Miller,
As to whether other proof houses do/did as you say, I have no clue. But, per Lee Kennett's excellent article on French proof in "The Gun Digest" 24th edition, 1970, A smokeless proof powder load was developed for each early smokeless powder as it was introduced. Superior proof of finished arms HAD been done with black powder, prior to 1896. The proof load for powder J, and it's derivatives, J1 and J2, and powder S were introduced in 1896. Powders M, R, and S2 had their smokeless proof loads developed in 1898, and powder T in 1900.
By 1914, all but powder T had been dropped as proof powders. Powder T is still manufactured to this day.
If what you are claiming is true, there would have been no need to develop a proof load for each powder as it was introduced-which was not the case, according to Kennett. Also, according to Kennett, these proof loads varied considerably in their pressures. It would seem to have been important, at least where French proof was concerned, that a gun intended to be used with powder J, M, S, or T, or any of the derivatives, be proofed with said powder. Which, as I pointed out, is what I thought they did.
Look it up yourself.
The rules of 1928 changed much, but, black powder proof of shotguns was set at 8,800 and 11,400 for superior black powder proof. Proof with powder T was set at 12,000 PSI and 15,600 for superior smokeless proof. Note that smokeless proof is performed with powder T. Not black powder.
Believe what you want about other proof houses, I guess. They aren't relevant to this conversation.
Best,
Ted

I found another Ideal lunette model 4R.
http://www.armureriejeannot.com/manufrance_id%C3%A9al.htm
I could ask for pictures if you wish.
Best regards,
WC

Would be cool to see exactly what it was proofed with. That seems to answer my question, but, like I said, the proof would be in the proof!
Best,
Ted

You weren't gone that long, Ted! Looks like you've got the yrs before 1920 locked in there if your Gun Digest guy knew what he was about. Point Schefelbein.

jack

A bit more info:


It would appear the "P" in each proofmark stands for "Poudre".

JC

There is a page similar to that, in Kennett's 1970 Gun Digest article, that includes marks from the proof house in Paris. It is a great article, and he did a series on them for European proof houses in the same periodical, published in different years.
Wild Cattle, if you can get a picture of the barrel flats and proofmarks on that lunette Ideal, it would be fantastic. I'll cautiously note that if it was proofed for anything other than powder T, say PM, PJ, or PS, it would likely be unwise to run off to Wal Mart and procure a box of whatever 2 3/4" is for sale today to shoot in it. Kennett noted in 1970, that it was often difficult for the 12,000 PSI minimum to be reached with the powders used prior to powder T. Further, even if it was proofed for powder T, that is an old, and light gun, and it would be wise to subject it only to lower pressure ammunition. Ere on the side of caution, I always say.

Best,
Ted

Ted, could you scan that paper?

I found yet another one here.
http://www.gournetusa.com/Ideal.htm

As for the discussion about proofing loads, the British did exactly the same, as they proofed the barrels with Black, and the guns sometimes with Schultze or EC or Rifleite, or Amberite or Cordite... per the maker's request.

In general the French makers battled themselves with heavier proofs to the point of silliness. This seems weird, but the majority of shells were home-made and hunters were pushing the envelope to get that hare at 60 yards, so they liked heavy proofs.

Another remark concerns the equivalence of pressure measurements.
A French kg/cm2 number might not be equatable to xxx PSI, as the measurement methods might be completely different. I don't have any data on this but one should be careful with simple translations.

Certainly, all usual precautions apply to an old gun.

Best regards,
WC-

Wildcattle,
Thanks!
You have found one nitro proofed lunette!!!!!!
It is a N° 3R.
I forgot this page even thou I visit the forum.
Martin

Kennet specifically notes PSI. I don't know if that is incorrect, or not. I have a photo copy of the whole, rather lengthy article, and I will see about getting the charts in it scanned. Hope I'm not violating any copyrights.
After reading the Ideal info Wild Cattle graciously posted from Geoffroy's site, and seeing the timeline for production of lunette Ideals, including the years that R proofed lunette guns were available, the little old gun dealer in Lyon may not have had an actual fact, BUT, it seems like it's usually a pretty darn good rule of thumb. Proof with powder other than PT can't really be considered smokeless proof by today's, or even, post 1900 standards. Lunette guns were in production until 1909. Powder T became the only proof powder in 1914. A lunette Ideal proofed with powder T is likely a rare bird, not impossibly rare, but, rare enough not to matter today. Hence, a lunette proofed with powder J, M, S, or anything other than powder T, was smokeless proofed FOR THAT POWDER, IN THAT ERA. It really can't be considered to be smokeless proof by today's standards.
Best,
Ted

Nitro proofed lunnete Ideal 6RE s/n 209xx (1899)