doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frenchie Ideal thing....odd firing pin placement..

Which powder, Geno?

Best,
Ted

In JC's scan of the St. Etienne proof house marks, the mark of "superior proof of finished guns to[?] the live powder without identification" is two arrows or shishkabobs. What is "without identification"? The powder used in proof? Makes no sense as my Ideal is stamped with these arrows followed by PT (powder "T") on barrel flats and water table. Does this point to 2-pipes' scenario of a generic/perhaps bp perhaps not/as long as it produces the required pressure proof load or is poudre T the proofing powder? Gun also marked "pression 1100 kilos" which I take to be 1100 BAR. This 1930s Ideal should have a higher service pressure than the current 800 BAR proofed CIP guns, should it not? What would that service pressure be (with of course the usual nod to safety in "old" guns?

jack

Let's just cut down to the bottom line here, there are any number of "Smokeless Powder Proofs" applied to guns of various proof houses, some naming the powder, some not. "MANY, MANY" of these proofs are not considered adequate for modern day SAAMI spec (ala Wallie World) shells. If the proof load was such that the gun was considered proofed for say a 9K psi load, then if your load does not exceed that 9K psi, then it doesn't matter if it was proofed with, or if you are loading; Black, Poudre M/T, Shultz, EC, Mullerite or " DuCules Purple Polka Dot".

The two points of importance are to what pressure level was it proofed to handle & what pressure level are you shooting. Now that doesn't seem too hard for a person of reasonable intelligence to understand.

It is not necessary that we be able to obtain the powder these old guns we talk about here were proofed with in order to obtain a load we can safely fire from them. Very fortunate, otherwise they would all be WallHangers.

Manufrance catalog 1900. Pages 2-8.
Catalogue 1900
There are a lot information about French nitro powders and guess answers to all questions.

WildCattle, "pyroxylee"--unlike "nitro" in some other countries--was not an officially required stamp of the French proofhouses. Therefore, there really isn't any "official" French term for smokeless. It's similar to "arquebusier" and "armurier"--both of which you will find on French guns, thus neither being the "official" term for gunmaker, since neither was a proofhouse marking. French for smokeless proof, as far as the proofhouses were concerned: either star or crown over PT. (And the P stands for poudre, not pyroxylee. On that issue, if you wish, I could quote you General Journee.)

Rabbit and JC, whether 3 crowns meant double proof or triple proof depends on when the gun underwent proof. According to Kennett (agree with Ted that his article is excellent), it originally meant double proof at 20,500 psi. It's now (since 1924) called triple proof . . . but the pressure reduced to 18,000 psi (still darned stout!) The previous superior (two crowns) is now called double--which makes sense, given the number of crowns. But leave it to the French to try to confuse us!

Miller, the idea in proof was NOT that you would run your ammunition at "proof" level. There was a service load, that was a percentage of the proof load, that was deemed safe. Use of a proof load, especially French proof, in a hunting gun, would likely lead to detached retinas in short order, never mind what happened to the gun.

Don't you remember the photos of those proof loads that Sherman Bell was trying to blow up old doubles with, that had lots of warnings all over the box, stating they were proof loads, and not to use them for anything else?

We don't run proof loads in our guns.

Lapin, I've only seen those kabobs in pictures, never on a gun. Not sure which level of proof is on your Ideal, but, it would be either 12,000 or 15,600 units of whatever pressure they were using that day-I'm confident you can use it with whatever, but, low pressure loads in old doubles is our mantra, usually.

That said, my R10, out of proof for several reasons, gets whatever I give it, up to and including 1 1/4 oz Federal "Pheasants Forever" loads of number 5 shot-a stiff cocktail in anybody's book. And, it's been fed that, during pheasant season, for years.

No harm to report. I might not be able to take it, as I approach 80 years or so.

Time will tell.



Best,
Ted

If 1924 is a French proof rules adoption watershed (perhaps not the only one?), both of my French doubles are this side of it so maybe I've a got a little better handle on the palms (Charlin) and the arrows (Ideal). And perhaps not so don't anyone rest easy that you won't have to repeat this info another ten times for Mr. Short Term Memory. In either event, many thanks! EDIT: I'll get a pic of the shishkabobs and post, Ted.

JC, I think I've slo got a pretty good handle on the sling disconnect. Got a length of 1/4" steel bar out of the scrap tonite and I have Jeff's drwgs. which you supplied. I've decided to leave the chingus attached to the barstock at the exterior arc that fairs to the opening in the ferrule (another sort of useful handle) and scribe that and cut off and finish after the clevis end is done and the pin fitted. May mock one up at work from soft plastic to get a little better idea how to proceed. I've got an old Rockwell Delta bandsaw with metal cutter reduction so I guess the "milling" is going to be that and files.

jack

Well I reckon its a total lost cause to even try & discuss anything with someone too totally Ignorant to understand anything they read. I of course did not in any way even imply that a gun should be shot with the proof load. In fact some several pages back (you can go back & seek it out if you care to) I mentioned that a gun intend "For" 9k psi loads might be proofed @ 12K or even 15K psi. When I on several occasions mentioned it was important to know at what level a gun was proofed "FOR" that meant the service load, not the proof pressure.
If there may be 3 million people following this post Ted I think everyone but you understood what I was saying.

But let me say it just one more time @ spell it out very clear, just for you;
"IF" I want a gun proofed for 9,000 psi loads for use with smokeless powder & I want it proofed @ 50% higher pressure ie 13,500psi. Now it don't make a Rat's A**" what powder the proof house uses, Black, Green, Purple or Pink as long as the pressure reaches that 13.5K psi, they can then stamp it as being proofed "For" smokeless powder "For" a 9K psi service load.
Proof houses very early on realized it was not really desirable to stamp the "Proof Powder" on the bbl as there were a few folks out there too ignorant to understand just what this meant, so standardized smokeless proof marks were adopted, that is by everyone EXCEPT the FRENCH, it took them a while longer to catch on.
Now if a proof house decided to use a fine grain black powder & the (proof) load produced that desired 13.5k psi pressure then they could (& in some cases indeed did), stamp that barrel as having a "Smokeless Powder Proof" suitable for use with a 9K psi load of smokeless powder. Its all really quite simple, what's important is what the barrel is proofed "For", not what its proofed with.

Larry,
I did not understand what your point was.
Of course, "pyroxylee" is not required to be marked on the gun. However, it is the *only* French word which applied to Nitro-cellulose based propellants in the early 1900s. Nitro or any derivative is just not in any French dictionary of the period and Smokeless or "sans-fumee" is way too vague and decidedly not scientific. By the way, Nitric acid was actually known as "acide azotique" in that time frame, Nitrogen is still "Azote", therefore Nitro anything was a non starter (except for nitro-glycerine which was a trade mark I believe).
By the way "poudre", even though widely used is not correct either, as the T is not really powder but comes in flakes.
As for the proof in the PT, I was looking for the actual regulation text which is the only way to actually prove this.
Anyways, I guess it's time to call it a day.

Best regards,
WC-

That sure is a magnificent gun, Geno.
WC-