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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 517
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 517 |
I don't understand your first paragraph.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 220
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 220 |
The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is when a vintage gun of fine or best condition get's choke tubes installed.
NEVER have agreed with that concept and NEVER will.
This is worse than having the original choke modified or "butchered" by having some barrel work done.
Just my .02 worth
H&H
NOT A FAN OF PERCUSSIVE MAINTENANCE
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103 |
If I buy a medium to high condition Parker, Lindner, or Purdey with some choke in the barrels, it is a duck or pheasant gun. Only an idiot would think it should be their next ideal skeet or woodcock gun. No Lindners or Purdeys around my house, but I do have a token Parker, a last year of production steel barreled P grade with tight chokes and a stock that is too long for me. It is useless to me but I won't do anything to it, not because its much of a 'collectible', but it is sort of a classic and I'd reduce the value it has if I messed with it. On the other hand I have no problem opening a Miroku so I can shoot steel in it or with whacking the stock and installing a pad on it...Geo
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
GJZ, our countries developed differently. The US placed emphasis on the individual. You see it in political representation, states rights, independence, the Civil War. Americans often think of Canada, a federation, as a socialist state because it is so different: medicare, equalization to provide a national social standard for all regions, rich or poor. We don't have the polarization around issues that you have there. Of course, it's a lot more than that.
Where America was a melting pot of immigrants building a great nation, Canada is a multicultural experiment, a Metis nation in some respects because our native people were the dominant group for more than half of 500 years of European settlement here. We didn't have a Wild West. When you went to the barricades against overseas abuse of power, we stuck with the nutty king across the sea. Two countries, different peoples. Both sovereign, brothers in arms.
Last edited by King Brown; 01/13/10 04:43 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,826 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,826 Likes: 12 |
Really now, to open up the chokes is "butchering a gun" ? That may be someones opnion, but not mine. No one can see what was done , like cutting off a barrel for " cowboy shooting ". Is doing trigger work butchering a gun ? Putting on a recoil pad so it fits ? Redoing the checkering ? Tuneing the screws ? They're my guns, and if no one minds I'll make em fit and shoot the way I want. And in my opnion, it's NOT butchering. Paul
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 190
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 190 |
King Brown,I think that you may be overstating the "American" part of your comments. From what I can tell from the literature active/knowledgeable British shotgunners have tended not to be all that inhibited about modifying their shotguns, either.
"Butchering" seems to be in the eye of the beholder. My "useful modification" might be your "butchery.
However, I believe that most can agree that "modification" becomes "butchery" when the work is done badly. IMHO gun work should be at least on a par with the quality that the gun had, to begin with.
Full disclosure: I might be considered a "butcher".
However, I had help. A few years ago, I bought what had been a nice Skimin and Wood BLNE. "Had been" because some duck hunter had "thoughtfully" shortened and bent the stock to fit a corpulent midget, banged the gun around a duckboat/blind and then tried to cover up the damage with Tru-Oil (laid on with a trowel, including in the checkering), allowed pitting to form in the bore, shot steel shot loads in the gun that had obviously been reloaded with insufficient shot protection (thus scratching the bore and bulging the gun's previously tight chokes), and, to top everything off, had used a hand reamer to open up the gun's chokes "rough as a cob" and at least 1/2 pattern off-center.
In the time a have had the gun: I have had the stock professionally refinished and had the stock's checkering "pointed up". I have had a thick recoil pad installed that has increased the LOP to at least something like adult measurements. I have "built up" the comb in a fashion that is consistent with the gun's time period (1920s to 1930s). I have had at least half of a duck marsh removed from the gun's action. I have had the gun's "loosey-goosey" fore end professionally tightened up" (twice). I have had the bores updated by having choke tubes installed (on center) and had the forcing cones lengthened when the scatches and pits were (more or less)polished out. I have also had de-activated the gun's abomination of a automatic safety.
If this be "butchery", then make the most of it. The gun is now useful to me. It was not, before.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 220
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 220 |
King Brown,I think that you may be overstating the "American" part of your comments. From what I can tell from the literature active/knowledgeable British shotgunners have tended not to be all that inhibited about modifying their shotguns, either.
"Butchering" seems to be in the eye of the beholder. My "useful modification" might be your "butchery.
However, I believe that most can agree that "modification" becomes "butchery" when the work is done badly. IMHO gun work should be at least on a par with the quality that the gun had, to begin with.
Full disclosure: I might be considered a "butcher".
However, I had help. A few years ago, I bought what had been a nice Skimin and Wood BLNE. "Had been" because some duck hunter had "thoughtfully" shortened and bent the stock to fit a corpulent midget, banged the gun around a duckboat/blind and then tried to cover up the damage with Tru-Oil (laid on with a trowel, including in the checkering), allowed pitting to form in the bore, shot steel shot loads in the gun that had obviously been reloaded with insufficient shot protection (thus scratching the bore and bulging the gun's previously tight chokes), and, to top everything off, had used a hand reamer to open up the gun's chokes "rough as a cob" and at least 1/2 pattern off-center.
In the time a have had the gun: I have had the stock professionally refinished and had the stock's checkering "pointed up". I have had a thick recoil pad installed that has increased the LOP to at least something like adult measurements. I have "built up" the comb in a fashion that is consistent with the gun's time period (1920s to 1930s). I have had at least half of a duck marsh removed from the gun's action. I have had the gun's "loosey-goosey" fore end professionally tightened up" (twice). I have had the bores updated by having choke tubes installed (on center) and had the forcing cones lengthened when the scatches and pits were (more or less)polished out. I have also had de-activated the gun's abomination of a automatic safety.
If this be "butchery", then make the most of it. The gun is now useful to me. It was not, before. Considering all that had been done to the gun before you came across it, then I can see adding removable choke tubes would have been an improvement. I was trying to convey that when people have this operation done to a vintage gun of fine or better condition. H&H
Last edited by H&H12 bore; 01/13/10 04:58 PM.
NOT A FAN OF PERCUSSIVE MAINTENANCE
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,129 Likes: 198
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,129 Likes: 198 |
I agree with my friend, King, that we are a different people North and South of the border. However, I won't go so far as to compare this difference to our attitudes about gun raping. You know, I don't for a minute think that most of the shooters who fool with the interiors of their barrels know how useless and pointless these modifications are for the purpose of hitting birds or reducing recoil. I think even fewer are aware of the harm they are doing to the resale value of their guns, because, to a man, they claim they are never going to sell them and they claim to care little about the value of the guns their widow will sell. I gave the example of the friend who ruined his NID 5E Trap. The same person had the barrels ported on a pristine prewar Superposed Lightning with twin single triggers. He was not confused about the benefits so much as he was uninformed about the value aspect. He spent hundreds of dollars reducing the value of his guns by more hundreds of dollars and not gaining a target along the way. He knows better now but can't reverse the damage.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 291
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 291 |
Wonko, YOU are the MAN!!!!!!
yeeee-hahhhhh!!!
Rick
"Sometimes too much to drink is not enough" Mark Twain
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 15 |
Doug, Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of all the internal barrel mods I run across on vintage guns. I don't like a chopped stock, or a pad on a little 20g that didn't come with one. I just said: "... it reminds me of the vintage WW2 airplanes...", not that it was exactly the same. But there are some similarities, but also vast differences. The vintage guns that I've modified/resstored were ones that had been chopped on the stocks, restocked poorly, had mechanical problems, etc. I always strived to make a gun better than it was, not just for my uses, but with an eye toward preservation. Afterall, I could just buy a new gun if function were the only criteria. For example, the Fox below had a cracked, poorly done replacement stock, that didn't fit me. The restocking was done in the spirit of the original, with upgraded wood and upgraded Fox X grade pattern checkering along with a X grade forend shaping. However, the barrels were Full/Mod and I wanted them to remain original, I also wanted the chambers to remain original. But I didn't specify that I didn't want the chambers lengthened to the guy doing the stock and metal finishing and to my dismay, he lengthened the chambers and forcing cones. I was upset, but what's done is done. I've almost forgotten about it until you brought this up. Darn. LOL. Anyway, the long chambers and cones don't completely ruin it for me. But I am glad the chokes are still original. On the otherhand, I have this relatively rare 20g LC Smith Trap grade with 32" bbls that some dingus openned to Mod/Mod. That one bothers me. 
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