doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts on possibly buying a Birmingham SxS...

Lately I have looked a several Birmingham boxlocks SxS’s in the $2k to $3k range, and am somewhat tempted. These have had nice engraving, great balance, suitable chokes, decent wood. Most are 60 to 90 years old.

Like most of you, I own a dozen + shotguns, so I would not be dependent upon this potential new acquisition. All summer, I shoot skeet and sporting clays with modern O/U’s, plus a little bit of trap. Probably about 4k+ rounds. I use the O/U’s because: (a) I shoot higher scores, (b) being newer, stronger, and having better steel, they hold up very well and need minimal repair, (c) since they’re heavier at 9 pounds, they recoil much less, (d) and I “save” the older SxS’s for hunting.

About August 1st, I store the O/U’s and begin shooting the older SxS’s for sporting clays to prepare for hunting season – when I exclusively hunt with older classic American SxS’s, and one Arrieta. I probably fire another 1k rounds at sporting clays in the fall, preparing for hunting, and on evening shoots after work, when hunting isn’t feasible.

My question is how well a 70 year-old Birmingham SxS will hold up if I fire 500+ rounds through it each fall. Is this too much for an old soldier? Will it be making regular trips to my gunsmith for broken parts, stock splits, etc? Are these old Birmy’s best used very lightly? Maybe as Closet Queens? Or is it reasonable to expect them to endure two cases of shells every fall for the next 10 years – after which I’ll probably be put into a nursing home anyway?

Does anyone actually shoot 500 to 1,000 rounds a year through their Birmy? If so, how has it worked out?

There is very little difference, construction wise, between a Birmingham and a London built gun. In fact many of the maker's who had a London address built their guns in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and other smaller localities. It depends on the gun and how it was cared for since it's birth. Guns of that age, for the most part, were no built for heavy loads, but with light game loads they should function indefinitely.

Just My Humble Opinion, George

Jerry they are high quality and as long as you shoot the loads they were designed for they should be reliable. My shooting student Joe Wood taught me that there was certainly an overall improvement in gun metallurgy becasue of WW1 and an overall decline in workmanship after WWII. There are certainly thousands of exceptions.

The 2-1/2" chambered guns were built to shoot on a regular basis 1-1/16 oz of shot at about 1200fps with pressure below at or below about 9000psi.

I think the Between-the-wars English 12s and BTW German 16s are the biggest bargains on the planet.

Those old guns have had decades to be screwed with. There seems to be alot of them with thin barrels. Additonally there are many out there that have been damaged by shooting hot American loads in them. As you said look for cracked and split stocks, thin walls, pin marks on the side of the hook for a quicky tightening job, loose ribs, etc.. just like any other old double.

Best,

Mike

Hi, can't add much to add to what Mike and George have said. They pretty much hit the nail on the head. I would like to add that be careful when getting a 2 1/2" chamber gun. It may be marked 2 1/2", but in the past someone may have let the chambers out to 2 3/4" and not submitted the gun for reproofing. I would check this first off. If the chambers have been let out the gun is out of proof. In the UK the gun can not be resold, but over here it's a moot point.

If the gun has been let out, you can bet that they shot modern American loads in them. The bbls and action can more than likely take the stress, but not the stock.

I'd take the gun to a good smith (or yourself) and pull the stock to see what damage that may or may not be there. Then I'd go from there.

I have 4 Brit guns and just love them. I shoot only low pressure loads in them (mostly RST, but also New Era). Never had one problem with them. They do kill birds dead.

Anyway, Good Luck!!!

All the best!

Greg

I believe that AmarilloMike is pretty much "on the money". Birmingham-made doubles, esp. those that were made "between the wars" tend to be excellent guns at great prices. (Just try to have a similar gun, made today!)

Condition can be a major factor in these old ladies as too many of them have not led happy lives. If one can find one in good shape then then these guns can give a lot of good service very inexpensively. With proper care, these guns will still be going strong long after we are "no longer interested".

Suggestions:

Before you make a final decision on purchasing one of these guns, it is a good idea to have the thing "looked at" by a COMPETENT gunsmith. Then, after the purchase, have the gunsmith "go through" the gun to make sure that everything is clean and "up to snuff". The latter form of "checkup" should be done every year to five years, depending on how much the gun is used and what conditions it is used under.

Don't "overhoss" your loads. The traditional suggestions for gunweight to shotcharge weight are good guidelines; 6 pound gun for one-ounce loads, 6 3/4 pounds for 1 1/8 ounces, and 7 1/2 pounds for 1 1/4 ounces. In fact, the gun most likely will do best with loads that are a bit on the "light side" (e.g. 7/8 to 1 1/8 ounce loads in 7 1/2 pound guns).

Pattern performance with "modern" light loads can be surprisingly good in these old, tight-bored" guns. These loads can also reduce wear on the "loose nut behind the butt"! This is particularly the case when loads are kept to "moderate" velocity levels of 1050 to no more than 1250 f.p.s..

But, say, you, like me, are a sucker for "ladies with checkered pasts and sad stories". There is very little on these old guns that cannot be fixed. Stocks can be repaired, altered, or replaced. (Old "export" Birmingham guns can have ungodly stock "drops" that can benefit greatly from judicious "bending", for example.) Actions can be tightened up and action parts can be repaired or replaced. Barrels can be cleaned up or even choke tubed or sleeved. Stock and metal finishes can be restored. All that is required is money and a good workman. At the end of the day, though, you will end up with a gun that is truly "yours" at a very reasonable price and with no harm done. The "Lady" might even be grateful!

In previous postings I have gone on at some length about a Skimin and Wood that "followed me home". This "renovated" old (1920s to 1940s) girl is now my primary all-purpose shotgun. Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays are all shot with this gun and, if I ever go hunting, again, I will most likely be humping its eight pounds, two ounces for that, too. I figure that, if I don't "get stupid" and I perform proper maintenance, the gun will outlast me, no matter how many rounds I put through it.

I guess what I am saying is, "Take proper care of your Birmingham gun (make?) and then go out and try to shoot the heck out of it." You might be surprised at how well you do with it. It is even possible that your O/Us might start to feel neglected!

Jerry, most well kept Birmys will give you good service--and with a touch of "class". One tip: for a shooter that will last several generations I'd focus on a Webley Model 700, postwar. They're well made basic boxlocks with modern metalurgy. Chambers were factory cut to 2 3/4". Tried and true Southgate ejectors. Short of gross negligence I don't think you can wear one out. Price is usually reasonable. Good luck!

Here's one I found on Guns International that looks like a dandy: http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-&-SCOTT-----12ga--28-Bbl-----Cased.cfm?gun_id=100113342

I totaly agree with Mr. Wood. I have been shooting my 700 and 701 for several years and think for the money they can'y be beat. Light, nimble and well made. I also wish to take this time to say I like Mr. Woods signature line. I quote it quite often with my kids and customers. Good luck, Bob

Hi Joe, I saw that Scott also. Looks to be in great shape and the price is a good one also. I have a Scott Model 500 Grade 2 in 16ga, just a great gun. As you said, hard to go wrong with a Scott. Especially the 700 series (as long as there not the "modern" 700's made in Italy).

All the best!

Greg

Greg, thanks for mentioning that the Webley name has been bastardized with guns from Turkey carrying the venerable maker's mark. Jerry will have no difficulty recognizing them.

Doublefan, thanks for the compliment. Guess that's why I shoot flintlock rifles and old doubles.....and endure AmarilloMike's dogs!

Hi Joe, not problem. The one "Modern" ones I saw was made by Sabbiti. But I have heard, that some are being made by the Turks. Perhaps the It. made was a first run production. Much tha same as Zabala made the first Weatherby SxS's then Weatherby switched to Fausti.

Perhaps someone can chime in here and enlighten us.

BTW, there is no way as you said you can confuse these "Two" 700's.

All the best!

Greg

I put about 2K rounds through my Charles Lancaster Model A Live Pigeon at wobble trap and ZZ each year. 1896 with original 2 3/4 chambers, proofed for 1 1/4 oz, and Whitworth barrels. I reload to about 8000psi, so no problems with it.

However, My Claybrough & Johnstone sidelock is a 7 pound game gun, and I put about 1K rounds through it on clays in August and doves in September - November. I reload to about 7000psi with 1 oz shot. No sign of stock cracks.

As I have made available before on this forumbefore, I have on Excel quite a mumber of low pressure loads from 4000 - 9000 psi using various hulls, primers, shot weights, and powder that were originally published by Sherman Bell. Just send me an email to jhaynes1@flash.net and ask for it. Jim Haynes

Jerry, I went back and read your original post and saw you were asking about a gun that was made 70 years ago. That would be in 1940 and I would not buy a Brit gun from that time period,at all.
As you have read the golden era was between the wars and for my money the best for value years were at the turn of the century{19th to 20th}. Find a nice one from before 1898 and you don't have to deal with the Feds to take delivery.
Advice to have a competent smith go over the gun is to be taken to heart and should be a condition of the sale. Good luck

Jerry, I went back and read your original post and saw you were asking about a gun that was made 70 years ago. That would be in 1940 and I would not buy a Brit gun from that time period,at all.
As you have read the golden era was between the wars and for my money the best for value years were at the turn of the century{19th to 20th}. Find a nice one from before 1898 and you don't have to deal with the Feds to take delivery.
Advice to have a competent smith go over the gun is to be taken to heart and should be a condition of the sale. Good luck

Although many of the "period" Brit game guns will be marked 1 1/8 oz, which was the max load for which they were designed, you can be far kinder than that to them by shooting very light reloads. Low pressure, it doesn't make any difference if you're using standard American hulls, even if the chambers are 2 1/2". And while there are 2 1/2" factory shells available, most of them are field loads of an ounce or more (although RST and maybe another company or two do make some lighter short shells for targets and game). I've owned a number of Brit doubles, both 12 and 16, and have shot multiple hundreds of light reloads through them in a year, not to mention "full strength" loads of 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 oz during pheasant season. They'll have pretty much the same issues as any older gun, but you do need to remember . . . it's not the years, it's the miles (or the shells, and the amount of care/abuse the gun has seen).

Right now, the market for used Brit (and European) boxlocks seems to be somewhat depressed. Not a bad time to buy. And the recommendation of the Scott 700 series is an excellent one. They're newer guns with modern chamber lengths, etc, but handling characteristics like the prewar guns. Should be easy to find a 12, in nice shape, in your price range.

And the Webley & Scott 700's in current production are indeed coming out of Turkey. A friend just handed me a catalog he picked up at the SHOT Show.

Justin, and others...

When I mentioned "70 years-old" that was only an approximate number, to clearly indicate I was referring to an older shotgun. I'm looking at several, and the ages vary in that 70 year to 90 year range.

Your point is well taken about the WWII period.

JERRY

with the caveat that condition is everything, the Birmingham guns were made to be shot and made to last. There's not much that can go wrong the action that can't be fixed easily by a competent gun smith. Some good advice by previous posters.

I shoot an 80+ year-old Westley Richards box lock. I don't shoot near the volume as you (mid-hundreds would be realistic), but my gun still functions flawlessly with minimal maintenance. I also shoot RSTs. I've watched WR boxlocks on the market and notice their price fluctuates quite a bit from bargains to rip offs. \

Thanks for all the comments. A few more questions...

1. What is the significance of " 1-1/8 " on the barrel flats? Obvious that was the nitro proof shot weight. Does it tell us any more?

2. What is the significance of " 1/31 " on the barrel flats?

3. I didn't see any length designation on the barrel flats. Should it be there?

4. Is a well-restored moderately engraved Birmingham BLNE 12 gauge worth $3k? If I tired of it, would it be difficult to sell for that amount?

Jerry Goldstein

1. What is the significance of " 1-1/8 " on the barrel flats? Obvious that was the nitro proof shot weight. Does it tell us any more?

That was the standard proof for a 2-1/2" chambered gun. The standard British 2-1/2" shell contained 1-1/16oz of shot and propelled it at about 1200 fps

2. What is the significance of " 1/31 " on the barrel flats?

That was the Diameter of the barrels at the time of proof. There is a table you can look up and see what the diameter at the time of proof was. In England it is illegal to sell a gun that has been honed a certain amount past the original proof diameter without reproofing the gun. It is not in the USA.

3. I didn't see any length designation on the barrel flats. Should it be there?

If you mean chamber length I believe the 12 over C in a diamond indicates 2-1/2" chambers. Over the 100 and some odd years they ahe been proofing guns the rules have changed from time to time. If you could post pictures of the barrel flats it would be very helpful

4. Is a well-restored moderately engraved Birmingham BLNE 12 gauge worth $3k? If I tired of it, would it be difficult to sell for that amount?

It is hard to say without pictures but that is a lot of money for a Birmey Boxlock.

Best,

Mike

Mike, I think he meant 13/1, which would indicate a bore diameter 9" ahead of the breech end of .725 to .728.




12 over a C in a diamond means 12 gauge chambers, nothing more. If a gun was proofed at 1 1/8 oz it originally had 2 1/2" chambers; if the proof load was 1 1/4 oz it was 2 3/4".

A few points I think worth mentioning. The "Standard" shot load for a 2½" chambered British gun was 1 1/8oz prior to WWI. To conserve lead it became mandatory for the makers to only load 1 1/16oz during this period. British ballistics of the era primarily listed the "Observed Velocity" which was the average over the first 20yds of flight. Conversion tables for these loads show many were much closer to 1300fps MV than 1200fps.
The 12/C in a diamond indicates any chamber "Shorter" than 3", thus an original 2 3/4" chamber of that era is also marked with 12/C in a diamond. After the standard shot charge wt began to be marked then that will help define the original chamber length ie 1 1/8 for 2½" chamber; 1¼ for 2 3/4" etc. As I recall I believe that actual chamber length & "Tons" pressure came in at about the same time. Prior to the shot wt marking there was really nothing in the proof marks to determine chamber length.
As a side note the standard USA ballistics quoting a 3DE-1 1/8oz load as 1200 fps MV was almost univesally applied as velocity over the first 15 ft for many many years. After the charge leaves the muzzle it seperates quickly so that individual drag replaces the drag on the charge as a unit. Velocity falls extremely rapidly at speeds in excess of the speed of sound. That 1200 fps is quite a bit "OFF" of true MV or the velocity at exact exit of the muzzle.
PS; that 1/31 should read 13/1 which denotes a dia which will accept a .719" dia gage but not a .729" one to a depth of 9" down the bore from the breech.

Joe; you posted some of this while I was writing. I should have added longer chambers were marked 12/LC (long chamber). The wording on this is just a little ambigous however & is not entirely clear if this mark began with 3" or for anything longer than 3".

2-piper, doesn't "13" mean .719 to .724 and "13/1" mean .725 through .728?

Hi, once again Mike is on the mark. I do agrre that 3k is a bit high for a BLNE. Of course condition is always a major factor and to some extent the maker.

Who is the maker BTW?

1 1/8oz is the standard shot charge for 12b 2 1/2" guns. During the First World War factory loaded shells were loaded with only 1 1/16oz of shot, to save material for the war. Markers just continued to use this charge after the war. This is why most 12b 2 1/2" shells today are only loaded with 1 1/16oz of shot.

I think you may have made a typo, the 1/31 should be 13/1. If so this means that the gun is a 13b and was so stamped under the 1925 Rules of Proof. It's still a 12b, just means the bore is tighter.

The 12C in the diamond indicates 12b and chamber size as Mike says, but it could also mean the gun could have a chamber length of 2 3/4" (which was used for heavy waterfowel guns). A general guide is 2 1/2" chambers are proofed for 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz for 2 3/4".

Anyway, this is a very good discussion. To bad we can't see a pic of the bbl flats, that would tell the whole story.

Here's a link to the Birmingham Proof House, it may help you out:

http://www.gunproof.com/

Good Luck and all the best!

Greg

Joe;
12ga = .729"
13ga = .710"
14ga = .693"
15ga = .677"
16ga = .662"
To find dimension for 13/1 simply add the .729" & .710", Divide by 2 & drop (don't round) beyond three decimal places. thus .729+.710/2 = .7195 & drop the .0005.
You were right in theory, but somewhere picked up the 13/1 dia for 13ga.
The full gauges are worked by a mathamatical formula & all "Rounded to three decimals, but the in-between sizes are averaged & simply dropped to three places.
Beginning with 10 ga where there are two in-betweens the steps are 1/3 & 2/3 of the space between whole gas, & still dropped to three places, not rounded.

A 1950s W&S Model 700 found its way into my truck somehow a few years ago. I've been very pleased with it. Case colors are mostly gone, but it is a good solid shooter that I take care not to feed overly large fodder.
So far I have used it for skeet and phez; it does fine at both.
Its choked IC and MOD, 28 inch barrels and 2 triggers of course.

Best,

Oops, thanks 2-piper. My brain slipped a cog. Thanks for the data.

In Burrard's Volume III first edition page 208 he gives 1-1/16oz as the standard load for 2-1/2" nitro shells. This was written in the ninteen thirties.


Best,

Mike

Yeah, and when I read it my dyslexic mind translated it to 13/1 and I never noticed it wasn't until I read your post.


Best,

ekMi

Here's a bore size table I have on my wall. Shows the minimum for each bore size.

A true 4 gauge bore is 1.052", though most 4 gauge shotgun bores run closer to 6 gauge & will be so proofed. I have ben told, but cannot really verify, that the original 4 gauge guns were built with brass cases. When paper cases began to be used rather than change the chamber they dropped the bore diameter. Makes sense at least. Not positive but 4 gauge rifles may have preceded the shotguns in this size.

I shot a four bore rifle ONCE......have no idea where the ball landed--I was taking a nap on the ground......