doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com To SDH-MT.Britte Guns.Toledo Steel Works on bbls

Bob, it is probably pretty certain the 16s and the engraving you talk about will not be in Shooting Sportsman any time soon. I really like Belgian guns and would enjoy seeing yours and knowing the engraver a bit. Some time ago, I posted a lovely Britte started 12 bore SLE , finished by Christophe and engraved by Schoffeniels [sp?] There are great guns out there from Belgium and too few are seen.

Bob, No offence intended but your information is too vague, without credible documentation and your cohort is named bumbellybeak(?!?!). The internet has way to much bad info for me too take this very seriously... Why not post the pictures here?
If you want to see the stuff in Shooting Sportsman, you would have to ask the editor.

Appearently there is a major disconnect betwen our thought processes because I have no idea why you would be asking me.

If you think it worthy of a Fine Gunmakng column I would have to have a lot more verifed information and this would not be the way to ask about that.

It seems like you are fishing for something??!! Can anyone else explain?
From personal interest I'd still like to see a pic, but I guess that's not forthcoming.
Best,
Steve

I repeat, but understand, there were 20, not 17 Britte/Desart/Pissart sidelocks. This is not confutable.

They are not all 12 bore.
Only the 17 which remained after the first choices were purchased by private parties were 12 bore, reportedly acquired by Griffin & Howe.

Three 16 gauge Holland & Holland-style finished sidelocks, were part of the 20, originally removed from the Britte factory at or about the time the Britte family became more and more conscious of other nearby manufacturing facilities being taken over by the Nazis for wartime production purposes.

Two were purchased by a private party whose name is known, in New York, offered by and purchased through Luc Vander Borght at a Vintage Cup event; later offered for sale on consignment by Niles of Safari Outfitters.

One of those was later purchased used from British Sporting Arms by a Gentleman lawyer in Texas, whose name is also known. Those two were initially offered new by, and purchased through Luc Vander Borght at a Vintage Cup event.

The third 16 was also offered by and purchased through Luc Vander Borght. It is signed in not one, not two, but in three places my one of Belgium's Master Engravers. How many guns can boast that, eh? It remains new and unfired.

My information is not vague at all. Mine is factual and can be supported with thorough documentation, my friend.

The information in Shooting Sportsman Magazine is erroneous.

The reason I asked you is because you asked for a picture. You asked me to post a picture here? Me?
Clearly, unequivocally it is the responsibility of Shooting Sportsman to publish the truth, the entire complete valid truth; it is what is expected of a Magazine thought to be of high ethics and a valid source of factual information. It's readership should expect that as basic to their reason for reading the magazine.

Anyone who would disagree with that reads the magazine, why; to look at the pictures? To say they subscribe to this highly regarded publication? Why, if not to be able to rely on it?

No need to talk vagueness or suggest lack of credible documentation on my part, and no need to diminish the importance of this information because I offer it here on the internet. This is a venue we choose and use to communicate about out sport and its Sporting traditions.

How many pins or screws does a 1917 Boss sidelock have?
This is where we come to ask and to learn and to share information. What do we do if someone says 10, but it really has 11? We share that here.

But this is bigger.

So big, the article's sub headline is "Griffin & Howe's fine-firearm find of the century.
A find like this is a big-deal to the Sporting community; Shooting Sportsman thought so- they published an article about it.
It's just that they got it wrong.
It's not Griffin & Howe's find of the century, it is all of our's find. It's history. There are not 17, there are 20.
Is it their responsibility to put forth articles which it's readership presumably takes as factual, but which promotes one of their advertisers of considerable import yet refuse to put forth the whole story, the Rest of the story? Is that what we expect from them?
Are we not fed up with just that sort of thing from some of our leaders in Washington?
It is their responsibility to each and every single reader, to the maker's of these fine guns and to the guns themselves to make it right.

I don't believe I am fishing for anything. I don't know why you would ask others to explain what I mean.

Do I want people to know the whole story? Yes, of course. In fact, I think the readership of Shooting SPortsman should expect and demand no less.

Here is not the place. Shooting Sportsman is the place. It is not my responsibility to provide to you, here; it is theirs to provide.
They know where all the documentation is.

And Steven, not ever having met you personally, I am well sure I have never insulted you or come close, but you my friend have come close enough to insulting me.

If the readers of Shooting Sportsman don't care if the material put forth is credible, is supported by full documentation, and is a source of valid information; if I am alone on this, so be it. But I've shared too many wee tots with too many members of the Sporting Community to believe I am.

Daryl, you may be right. They, and the information about these fine sidelocks, their documentation, photos, communications with their engraver, his personal recollections of the times, the family, the highly sought after barrel makers and gunmakers, and more, may never be seen in Shooting Sportsman.
That would be too bad.

I have only met Guy Bignell on two occasions and only for a short time. If I am any judge of character though, I think he would agree; things need to be made right by the Magazine which got it wrong. It's not like they can not.
Perhaps if he would ask them they will change their mind?
Let me say, I doubt sincerely that he or the author or the magazine intentionally mislead the readership.

Daryl, Steven, I would be pleased to show you in person all that I can; further I would ask the other gentlemen if they would do the same.

Does one man arguing in the woods make a sound?

[quote=SDH-MT]Does one man arguing in the woods make a sound? [/quotte]

Steven, he has pretty well called you out as the author of an article that he says fails to tell the whole storey. In this case, I would say that one man arguing in the woods does indeed make a sound.

Maybe his argument would be better made in an article of his own submitted to SS. Or, maybe he has done just that and been refused publication...Geo

Whoa, Geo.
Steven did not write the article in the November/ December 2009 issue of Shooting Sportsman! It was written by Douglass Tate.

Steven, your post, if to or about me, falls short as I argue not. I have simply presented unpublished factual information, whether you like it or not.

Great Magazine. Great find. Great that the information in the article is erroneous? . Noop. That is beneath what is expected of them They ought to make it right.

If anything, that is the sound I make.

Luc Vander Borght offered 20, not 17 finished Holland & Holland-style finished sidelock guns from the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection for sale at a Vintage Cup event.

There are not all 12 bore as stated in the magazine.
Three are 16 gauge.
Three were purchased by private parties through Luc Vander Borght from the family.
Two were purchased by a New York gentleman. One of those was later offered for sale on consignment by Niles of Safari Outfitters. It was engraved by "Smeets".

Another was later offered for sale by BSA; a Texas gentleman lawyer, and yes, he is, purchased it and currently owns it.
The third 16 is the one signed in three places by the engraver; it remains new/ unfired. It was purchased through Luc Vander Borght from the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection of 20, not 17.

Those remaining 17, all of which are 12 gauge were purchased by G&H.

Quit arguing, man. Fact is fact. Right is right. Wrong is when a highly regarded magazine gets it wrong, likely due to erroneous information, and does not make it right.
Wrong is when three works of art resulting from hours and hours of love toil are omitted. Wrong is when they themselves, the barrel makers, lock makers, stock makers, on and on, are simply disregarded.
The Magazine does not think their readership would be interested enough for them to correct their wrong.
What makes them think their readership is interested enough in the 17, 12 gauge finished H&H-style sidelocks, but not in the three 16 gauge?
Why are you attempting to belittle me? I have done nothing wrong or off color to you.
I am only presenting the facts. Those, yes, unpublished facts. That what I say is not published does not make me not credible.
To the contrary, until such time as they make it right, it is the magazine which is.

Wups!...Pay no attention to my mindless posts. Thta's what I get for forgetting what the thread was about. Sorry, Bob and Steven...Geo

To Bob's point, many of us hold SSM to a higher standard than most other printed media. We know they need advertising dollars, but if they only print articles or shade them to the benefit of those companies that advertise, they lose credability. Yes they can print what they choose, based on their judgement of the readers interest, but if they printed info and were laetr informed it is incorrect, a correction is warranted.

Thank you, Nitrah.

You know, this BBS and the Shooting Sportsman bulletin board are forums for many, many opinionated and ethical people.

It's notable that you say it like it is; and too, that so many other looked-up to people, to this point, have not.

I have come to know so many good people in the Shooting Sports community. Ours is a fine and noble Tradition. We are all nothing if not those who hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Doug Turnbull., Dave Weber, where you on this issue?

Franc Otte?

Roger Sanger, Silvio, what say you. One of these fine guns, the 16 signed in three places by the engraver, was entered into a Concours d'Elegance at a Vintage Cup event.
If as I put forth there are 20, not 17; if there are three 16 gauge finished Holland & Holland-style sidelocks from the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection, all purchased by private parties through Luc Bander Borght before G&H acquired the remaining 17,
what say you about Shooting Sportsman Magazine bringing this to light, in the article they deserve, eh? Or, shall they be overlooked? Omitted?

And Ray, I've never known you to hold your tongue where right or wrong is at issue; All 20, not 17 as this article states, were offered for sale through Mr. Vander Borght, at one of your Vintage Cup events at Sandanonna.
The following year, one of them was entered into one of your Concours events. What say you, Mr. Poudrier? Might you have a good reason for not stepping on a toe?

Niles, your Safari Outfitters offered one of them on consignment; the one with large bold scroll engraving by "Smeets". What say you?

Charles, your British Sporting Arms sold one to a gentleman/lawyer in Texas.

Jack, we looked at this collection of 20, offered by Luc Vander Borght together at The Vintage Cup. One of these fine 16 gauge H&H-style finished sidelocks of the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection, you yourself imported into La Becasse. Put that Upton down long enough to tell Shooting Sportsman they ought to make this right, if you're of that opinion; I know you have the balls.
Hell, Dani does too; Chime in girl. The article is wrong; they left three out. Should they make it right? By the way, have a good sense of right from wrong, is what I mean!

David T., Barry B. H., Shy Englishmen holding their tongues, I can not fathom. You don't know this but I have hoisted a tot each year to your father on the anniversary of the day we now memorialize and pay our respect to people like your father who fought for what is right. Do him right; Speak up man.

Vic, you want to get it right for your upcoming book, yes? Do not be shy, the Magazine needs guidance, they need to know they should make it right by virtue of a justified article giving full knowledge and validity to the three 16 gauge finished H&H-style sidelocks which ARE part of the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection, offered by that family through Luc Vander Borght.
Incidentally, introduced by Jack, we met one time; further I missed the opportunity to hunt with you at his friends hunt, only due to a severed achilles tendon. Perhaps another time.

Doug Tate, it was you who was reportedly fed erroneous information you put forth in the article you penned. Here is tremendous opportunity. What say you; do you care if this is set right?
We have never met; it is through others I glean you are one possessing the moral fiber called for on this issue.

Michael M., we too have never met, but have several friends in common. I have supplied fodder enough for at least a couple of bowlfuls, perhaps a raised eyebrow or smile too. The issue is simple. If what I have put forth is accurate and correct, is it right for the Magazine to not make it right?

And where are all the dealers on this? Whether you advertise on this Doublegunshop(.)com or on Shooting Sportsman, we, your buying public ask and expect you to be honest as nails with us. Right now is a fine time to show you are, even if it means stepping on a SSM toe. Is it right? Or does it need to be made right?

People, I can go on, but will cease for now with the comments to the following people.

Luc, you may have told G&H they acquired them all. That is not the truth. Evidence the truth or you put me in a position to do so.

Mr. Bignell, having met you only twice, and being a man I truly feel is a gentleman, I address you more formally.
Are those 17 finished H&H-style finished sidelocks which G&H acquired and marked J. Bury by virtue of the fact that G&H acquired the name Jules Bury, the only finished H&H-style sidelocks of the Britte/Dessart/Pissart collection of 20, three of which are 16 gauge, the only ones of the 20 which deserve proper recognition, or, do they all, including the three in 16 gauge which were purchased from this family collection through Luc Vander Borght before G&H acquired those remaining 12 gauge sidelocks?
Incidentally, at least one of then, signed in three places by the Master Belgian Engraver was also marked with the J. Bury name, through Mr. Vander Borght prior G&H's acquisition of it. Would you not like to see it, perhaps being the finest of them all? In the words of the engraver, it was the only one of those 20 Britte/Dessart/Pissart sidelocks which the family gave him, the engraver, full license to conceive the whole engraving pattern.

Ralph Stuart, hear me clear; you do a disservice of major concern if you do not as prompty as possible, make this right. There is a responsibility which Shooting Sportsman has.
Ralph, I ask you this:
"Why is it so easy to ignore a problem until it lands in our backyard - to convince ourselves that a concern is someone else's, when we know deep down the repercussions could someday reach our doors? Is it because we, as individuals, feel helpless to effect change? Because we don't believe that one voice - or vote - makes much difference these days? Maybe it's just human nature to stay off the front lines and hope the fight doesn't come to us."

Actually, I correct myself; it is not "I" who ask you, as those are your words in the opening paragraph of the "From the Editor" column on page 5 of the March/April 2004 issue of Shooting Sportsman magazine, so ask yourself if you want to do right by your advertisers, your writers, the Sporting Tradition, those who have come before us, those will come behind us, to our departed friends, a legacy to our Sporting life, including Tim, to the makers of fine guns which are the soil in which your business and perhaps pleasure roots, you have planted - to History, to your readership, but mostly, man, to yourself.








In the March/ April 2004 issue of Shooting Sportsman Magazine

I am sure there lots of guys mentioned above who are watching the Super Bowl festivities. They will probably come forward after the game.