doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need Some Enlightenment??

I've been hanging around this board for some time, I can say that there are some very knowledgeable people here. I've seen several discussion on the British gun trade. My question is this, did many shotguns, even the "Best" begin in Birmingham and Belgium as "rough" castings/forgings and were finished in London or did the "Best" (H&H, Rigby, Richards) have their own "works", manufacturing a gun from scratch? It seems to me a London addy always brings a premium (a sales ploy in some cases) no matter where the gun was actually made especially if one is not familiar with the meaning of proof marks. Any comments would be appreciated, just how does/did it work? --- John Can.

I would think, the London gun, was known by the craftsmen who built them. A shooter who wanted the best, could get the best.
Rigby more for rifles, and Westley Richards, the king of the boxlock - rather than the builders of bests.

Originally, H&H did not make their guns, W&C Scott of Birmingham made them. I believe that Nigel Brown and Donald Dallas commented that London gun makers originated from around the Tower of London area where the royal armouries were. The concept of the London Best gun began with the Mantons where other makers like Purdey and Boss worked.

Certainly there was a tremendous rivalry between London and Birmingham in gun making. IMHO, London being the seat of power and the wealth that goes with power in a kingdom got most of the fame.

John the London fOgg has followed some to America.

Truth is if not for the Brummies there would be no London bridge.

There was no rivalry for the best gun.
London had that market cornered from the late 1800s on.
Vic Venters's SSM article on Greener's G-Guns should clear the fog for most.

There was a heavy trade of Belgian parts to England. These included barrels, actions, etc. This is documented at least during the very early 1900's, though the trade had been on going for decades.

So many assume that if a set of barrels was produced in Liege, it had to be proofed there before being shipped to England. More and more, I am of the opinion that they were most likely shipped unproofed and then proofed in England. Making their origin almost impossible to trace. How many times have you seen a set of Krupp barrels on a gun? How often did those barrels have German proof marks?

Pete

There are those who feel the need to prove that European parts were used to make-up the English gun.
Makes you wonder why?
So, you think the Brummie big mass-producers, like Westley, Greener and Scott brought-up rough Belgian actions?

I'd be very interested in what the true experts on this subject have to say on the matter, but my impression from reading and observations from collecting lead me to believe that Birmingham was the primary source of innovation and expertise, while London's success was largely based on the acquisition of Birmingham's techniques, craftsmen/artists and products, and then greatly enhanced by geography and their own brilliant marketing skills. (Note that many sharp Birmingham firms opened London shops to sell their wares.)

Most would agree that Birmingham could build "best" guns every bit as good as anything London built, but didn't make it their trademark the way London did. I generalize, of course, because both could boast the talent to create whatever their clients sought, but the Birmingham trade made its money supplying the guns (sporting and military) that built an empire, while the London trade made its money supplying guns to the elite who ran and lived off the empire.

It seems to me that the arguments in this ancient debate revolve around a difference of opinion as to the definition of the classic, quintessential British sporting gun ... regardless, it was a tool that 99 percent of the world couldn't afford, but was it a working man's Westley Richards or Greener boxlock, or a peer's exquisite and super-expensive Boss or Purdey sidelock? TT

Who is saying that there was a rivalry for the best gun? I only stated there was a rivalry between London gun makers and Birmingham gun makers.

Don't know if its true, but someone on this board once stated that Andrews made barrels (possibly actions also?) for some of the best names. Evidence was a tiny "A" stamp. This in response to my query about a complete gun by that maker in my collection. I would like to know more about Andrews.