doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Wilh. Collath-Sohne 12 ga SxS shotgun.

Hello Gentlemen:

I am looking for related information and, if possible, aproximate value of a really interesting shotgun.
It belongs to a friend of mine, here in Mexico city, and we will apreciate if some of you can upload the photos I have. Belive me it is worth the effort, so if any of you can help to show the photos in the forum (send them to an e-mail) it will be great.

The shotgun is German, side by side, with a very rare locking system and also a unusual safety. It is in very nice condition (like new I think).

This is the information I have:

Wilh. Collath-Sohne
Franfurt
A- Oder
Witten Tesco Excelsior

It is a 12 ga, 70 mm, with 75 cm barrels and extractors, choked extrafull both sides. The photos will tell a lot more.

Thank you in advance for the helping to upload the photos and the knowlege comments you will do.

Best,

Jose:
I tried your email but it bounced back but I may have typed it wrong. Email me the pics & I'll post them for you. Does the underside of the tube look similar to the following pic??:



MERCO just may have made it if "TESCO" isn't present.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I missed the "TESCO" stamp with was used by Collath's sons(Franz & Paul) after Wilhelm Collath expired(June 21st, 1906) and was for TESchner COllath. So they made it in their shop more than likely from sourced components post WWI, which would be a guess. It may be dated. Witten tubes were used on their higher offerings. The example is typical Teschner-Collath and was patented. The following is an advert showing the safety that I'm pretty sure came from littlegun:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

More pics and I hope better resolution than my 1st attempt. Very nice oak leaf engraving throughout.
















Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nice butt, thou!

A few questions:

Do somebody know about the history of the maker?

Does the locking system has a name?
Also, does the unusual safety has a particular name?

The tigerguard and the front lever are made of some kind of horn.

Can I say for sure that the shotgun was made in the 1920´s?

Some guess of value in your Country?

I fall in love with this shotgun since I met her yesterday. So rare and so beautifull; perhaps not very shotable with those extrafull chokes.

Best,

Wilhelm Collath was born in Greifenberg, Pommeren( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryfice ) on February 25th, 1838, which was the same year that Georg Teschner founded his firm in Frankfurt an der Oder.
In 1858 Wilhelm Collath began his walkabout and he may have begun in the Danzig area. By 1859 he was employed in the Teschner shop and 11 years later in 1870 he was a partner as well as became a member of the Frankfurt an der Oder gunmaker's guild. Sources give that in the 1890s Wilhelm Collath purchased the Teschner firm. Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse may have laid the foundation with his needle-fire gun and Teschner & Collath built on his design with Berger of Köthen in the mix somewhere. The action is typically referred to as the Collath or Teschner-Collath action. Wilhelm Collath had at least 8 weapons patents with 1 being a needle-fire type patent. His design was an "eccentric" lockup with a tipping barrel breech and really no hinge pin. When the horn underlever is moved to the left, the tubes move forward and then up with the forend/receiver acting like a trough. Evidently Collath, etal, really believed in the action as they didn't really deviate from it and were about the only ones offering it. Even though they sourced other craftsmen, which just makes economic sense, they were makers to the trade. Around 1900 the Teschner-Collath firm was churing out 1000 examples per year and by 1906(Wilhelm Collath expired on June 21st of that year) there were around 100 craftsmen employed for the effort. But from marks on Collath examples, it appears that the firm sourced the craftsmen at Zella-Mehlis as well as Suhl. Seeing your example has "TESCO"(TESchner-COllath) I'd say it passed thru the Frankfurt an der Oder proofhouse, which used Troisdorfer powder and closed in 1939, post 1912 and pre-1923. It just may have been made in the post WWI - 1923 period. Georg Teschner had some odd cartridge designation where a 10 bore was 0 and a 28 bore was 8. It seem to catch on in parts of Europe. Teschner-Collath was in the cartridge development and I'd say most of their examples would only accept their proprietary cartridges. Many times on the sides of the barrel lugs the calibre or number will be stamped there.

On the safety, for now I'll guess it is of the mastermind Collath or Teschner.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A cutaway showing the safety from KCordell's thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=184857&page=1

Jose:

When does the tab beside the wing safety rise and is there stamped "nes" under the lower wing? And there looks to be some interesting mark on the tubes just forward of the flats, that is if if isn't a mesh of scratches.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Re. cutaway. I had Tesco double 16G circa 1928 and locks design was a bit different. First of all firing pins were thick and long inside the action and when wing safety turns accentric wheel pushes both hammers a bit back from firing pins. Flat spring, that looks like two points fork been placed right to the trigger plate by one screw bolt.
No NES signs was on mine.

Raimey:

Thank you for share your knowledge regard this gun maker.

About the NES word in the bottom of the safety, NO, there is no such word (or any other) in that area.

I am sorry but I do not understand well your last question: do you want that I take a better picture of the barrel flats to see the marks?

My friend, the owner, wants to use the shotgun (basically for quail hunting) so he is adapting a detechable comb rising and increasing the lenght of pull (without altering the shotgun !!) apropiate for his dimensions.
The other "big problem" is the extrafull chokes in both barrels, do you think that cutting those chokes (well done with a reamer) is a "sin" in such an antique an odd shotgun?

Regards,

Jose, IMO there are two big problems with this gun, first, extra full chokes, second, huge kick. I've been forced by two these facts to sell the gun. If your friend opens chokes, kick will remain the same. This gun is not for quail hunting and thats for sure.

Ah, full chokes aren't that bad, have a practical application and actually can be beneficial. Just lighten the load and you can shoot in short sleeves like Dig.

Here's an interesting G.L. Rasch that Marc forwarded to me:









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
On the outside, that Rasch looks alot like a T. Woodward spiral spring action. Alot like it actually, all the way down to the shape of the top tang, the "rolling" safety, cocking indicators and the shape of the underlever. Internally however.....all kinds of different!!! Neat gun.

Dustin

Dustin:

On the surface I had thought so too but the internal mechanism/mousetrap is as you note "different". I'll bet the tubes were sourced from Britian. I just posted it here but intend to put it on a Georg Ludwig Rasch thread.

An interesting Collath(TESCO), who was a maker to the trade: (No. 124) http://www.altejagdwaffen.de/Details.155.0.html?&no_cache=1&L=1&tx_fwwcat_pi1[showUid]=88

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have been lucky to have found a few Collath drillings and SxS in the last few years.

In two examples, both C1 or 12 Gauge, the chokes were extra full. C1 (Collath #1) has been problematic for me as the typical 12 gauge shell does not fit (atleast in these examples). As I am against rechambering the gun, I am having a good gunsmith build custom "chamber mates" for 20 gauge which I belive will work well. I will report when these are completed.

For the last few years, I have been hunting upland with Collath C3 (16 gauge) drilling which in my examples have been a little snug but work well (I use polywad 16 2.5"). One in particular is chambered in 16x16x 8x57 (.318). It allowed me to take a coyote while in the field for birds....quite accurate I may add.

In my opinion, Collaths are great guns and have proven to be my favorite.

Per the action, I am attaching a few pictures I took when one Collath drilling I received from Cabelas a few years back was missing the firing pin and needed a new spring... luckily, my gunsmith had the capability to handmake replacements.

Thanks Kcordell for the effort. The pics give insight as to mousetrap. I assume it was the rifle striker/spring that was missing? Any interesting stamps on the back side of the frame? I see a few but can't make heads or tails of them. Where does the safety engage; at the top of the 3 hammers?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thanks for the reply. The spring for the left shot barrel was worn and was replaced. You can see in the picture that it didnt engagew with the hammer. Correct, the firing pin for the rifle was not present whe I got the gun.

I cannot get better pictures of the proofs now as it has been professionally repaired... I would rather not disasemble now and have the chance of buggering a screw.

Here are a few photos of other Collath proofs.. I hope they help.













For kicks... Interesting Collath Hammergun

Thanks to Axel E. of GGCA as I now understand why most of the Teschner-Collaths had Witten's Excelsior steel: the Berger lock design, actually Teschner-Collath adopted Berger's design but on a blitz action, is by the Witten steel Bergers, Constans Louis Berger and Carl Ludwig Berger. The Berger name didn't connect, but I knew that they had a very nice glass display at the factory entrance with Walloon steel articles, if I remember correctly, as well as the composition of Excelsior steel and data on tubes that were tested. All along with steel articles of interest. I think Heinrich Erhardt worked at the factory before founding his business in Zella Sankt Blasii. Also Axel notes that in the mid to late 1800 Colt was a big importer of 44mm stock steel from Berger and that the Peacemakers were made of that stock steel. I wonder if any of the early Colt doubles were of the same steel??

Kcordell:
I was browsing thru your marks and I now notice the 8X72 Brenneke. That's a pretty rare bird whether it's a 8X72 Brenneke, 8.2X72 Sauer or 8X72 Collath. Did you procur some ammo for it or just cobble it up to fit the chamber?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Yep, 8x82 B. Found brass for it but haven't futzed with it just yet.

Research of Axel E. of GGCA appears to indicate that not only did Witten supply the tubes for Teschner-Collath examples but also was sourced for raw forgings for those who made longarms based on the Berger(Berger-Witten) lock design. So the steel of the longarm is composed of Witten steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi, updating the thread with yet another set of pictures of complex yet exquisit Collath internals. This is Collath C1 (12/12) x 9.2x82r shown above. Firing pins are quite interesting to say the least.

C1 Collath is an odd variant of 12 gauge will not function with conventional 12 gauge shells. I was fortunate to have Dewey Vicknair of Vicknair Restorations build a set of sub gauge inserts that actually function with the original extractor system. Aside from that Dewey forged a new firing pin for the rifle as well as replaced a part necessary for elevating the rear rifle site. Excellent work overall. I am very pleased with this Collath and look forward to taking it to the field next season.

Hi Guys,

My very first double is a Collath by GL Rasch. My father got this shotgun from a friend whose father brought it with him from Germany when he emigrated to the us in the 1920's. I always shot it well but as Russ R. warned me when using it on a hunt beware or it will bite you. Sure enough when trying to reload quickly on my second hunt with it I clamped it on a little piece of skin boy did that bite hurt.



looks like maybe the same engraver.

Jeff

I like that deep engraving

very nice Jeff!

I've starred at the following gauge stamps and the only thing I can come to terms with is that at some point Collath had enough influence that the proofhouse at Frankfurt am d. Oder stamped his examples with his cartridge designation or at some point the proofhouse at Frankfurt am d. Oder used his designation??? Or was Wilhelm Collath rolling and proofing his own?


1 bore????


4 bore????



I don't think there were a lot of 1 bore & 4 bore shotshells floating around. Also the odd tubeset knitter's stamp is common to TESCO tubesets from the same time period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Advert showing Collath 1 gauge & 4 gauge in his gauge scheme.


Lancaster's contribution from NE

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=107196&an=&page=&vc=1




Proofmarks from previous page & note the 1 gauge stamp, which I assume to be a 12 bore? Also looks to have the same tubeset knitter initials.

0 = 10 gauge
1 = 12 gauge
3 = 14 gauge
4 = 16 gauge
5 = 18 gauge
6 = 20 gauge
7 = 24 gauge
8 = 28 gauge




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An article from 1884 looks to show that they were indeed rolling their own. It was on April 25th, 1871 that weapons makers Johann Gottlieb Teschner & Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath became partners, not a civil union for the slightest chance that any are considering that. Seems that G. Teschner & Company was also registered at that time.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath was born on February 25th, 1838, the same year that Johann Gottlieb Teschner hung out his gunmaking shingle. Collath would have attained the rank of master by the mid 1850s when he joined Teschner and more than likely at this time he married Teschner's daughter. As noted above Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath became a partner on April 25th, 1871 and in 1875 at Johann Gottlieb Teschner's death, he became the sole owner. It would seem that the G. Teschner & Company name of the concern was a constant and that the latter portion changed from Collath to Collath & S�hne. Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath died at age 68 on June 21, 1906 with Franz & Paul taking the reins, both being excellent marksmen on par with Ernst Steigleder and some cat named Stusche. Paul was a top shot with a rifle and won many awards.


Paul Collath in 1908.

It would seem that the Frankfurt am der Oder proof facility was within the Teschner - Collath compound and so at some point Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath evidently thought his bore diameters were more important that the English version and that is why we see Collath type bore diameter stamps. Also, I'm sure the firm was sourced for his eccentric lockup design in the white as it was very popular for some reason. So with the Collath bore diameter stamps one could purchase the correct Collath ammo and his concern was a one stop shopping facility where one could purchase one and all.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse