doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com W. Foerster Berlin

Marc always comes thru with some interesting auction finds: http://www.stiegele-jagd.de/catalog/view/page/3/options_id/242



I've just glanced at the gold/copper? inlay on the left lock & frame and I'm curious exactly what it is.







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The gold/copper colored leaf seems to be a later addition, maybe to hide a defect.
The seller suggests this gun belonged to Kaiser Wilhelm but the crown over W is not closed shape Souvereign (Royal) type but of lower rank, seemingly 9-point open shape, indicating a Count.
With kind regards,
Jani

Thanks Jani for the once over analysis and translation. At first guess I didn't think it was that of the Kaisers, but the following link seems to suggest that the Kaiser obtained weapons from W. Foerster for gifts. I'll have to look but I don't recall seeing any of the Kaiser's weapons with a crossover stock.

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AAA2541

W. Foerster was a master gunsmith and a supplier to the Royal Court of Carl(1801-1883) von Preussen from 50 Tauben Strasse 50, Ecke Der Kanonier Strasse, or what I think to mean as also being at/near the corner of Cannon Street. Carl von Preussen was the 3rd son of King Friedrich William III of Prussian. Carl had 5 sisters one of them being Charlotte of Prussia, who had a very close relationship with Carl von Preussen demonstrated by her caring for Carl even after she was wed to Tsar Nicholas I of Russian. Carl von Preussen attended her coronation to the title of Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna. Carl von Preussen visited Russian several times and this is the social network/connection that allowed W. Foerster to be a firearms merchant/supplier to kings and Tsars. Firearms merchants with a royal appointment or being interconnected to the court seems to really elevate the status of the maker/supplier in the eyes of many & the firearms merchant touts that thru advertising. W. Foerster seems to have had such a following in Russia. But W. Foerster hit the jackpot with his royal warrant/supplier to the Royal Court of Carl von Preussen as Carl took the military route for his ascension and by 1824 he had the rank of Major-General which was a stepping stone for head of artillery by the 1850s. Carl looks to have had a great interest in hunting and passed the passion by purchasing the Glienicke hunting lodge for his son Prince Friedrich Karl, which was yet another source for W. Foerster to supply.



Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,

You may remember helping me with the history of my W. Foerster/Berlin also marked J. Ansorg/Wurzburg. My gun appaears to be assembled in Germany with some Belgian content as evidenced by the perron on the watertable. Here are some pics that may be of interest for this thread:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/156.jpg
http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/143.jpg
http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/134.jpg
http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/153.jpg
http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/152.jpg
http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/4Philbert/147.jpg

Philbert, I do and thanks for adding them to the thread. Your example passed thru the Suhl proofhouse between 1912 & 1923. I'm curious if W. Foerster had a client who wanted an additional set of tubes and then W. Foerster sourced J. Ansorg of Würzburg who in turn sourced a relative in Suhl??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

hallo

i also have the shotgun marked W.Foerster berlin. it's strange... but i have doubts that it was made for Wilhelm.

my shotgun is double-barreled, its made with all the care and precision of a work of art. engraved with gold and silver. metal has a marble effect (texture) with rich ornaments and butt is made of chosen piece of walnut with exquisite structure. on the top it has a monogram (initials) with crown above and also golden number "2" in the circle.
About golden number "2" on the shotgun i have learned that, for the important persons, as a rule there was making the pair of identical shotguns - difference was only in diameter of barrels. first was 12-bore for the hunting on beasts and second was 16-bore for the birds.
My attention was especially laid on the monogram. During its identification I started to think that this shotgun was made for the German emperor Wilhelm the second. First of all - from the shape of the crown I verified that it is “margrave's” crown. On the other side I found that Hohenzollerns were the margraves of Brandenburg. Also on one of Russian internet sites I found an article where was told that Augusta Victoria (Wilhelm 2s firs wife) presented him with a pair of double-barreled shotguns made by the royal gunsmith W.Foerster. In “ Potsdam ” there is a museum of royal firearms and I can’t find there Augusta ’s gift to Wilhelm. My doubts aggravated the fact that the grandfather of the person from whom I bought this shotgun was the soviet “polkovnik” and after the world war 2 he was living in “ Potsdam ” for about 6 years.

Unfortunately, i dont understand how to put photos here. can someone told me how can i do this?

nikoloz:
Email them to me & I'll post them for you. Nice bit of info you've posted.
Here's a thread detailing how to post pics: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=168378&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nikoloz's pics:







Was the left hand of the Kaiser that had an issue? This longarm looks to be a left handed opener. The 24 scatterguns and 32 rifles which were the hunting weapons of the Kaiser are located in the Royal Palace in Berlin and also in Palais in Potsdam. An article in the 1913 Wild und Hund was translated by GGCA's Mr. Dietrich Apel and a portion of it is in Vol. 17 at page 8. It gives that Paton u. Walsh-London made a 16 bore Lefaucheux double, 2 16 bore doubles by H. Leue & F. Timpe of Berlin, 2 12 bore scatterguns by Lancaster of London with "Woodward" steel tubes, which I guess to be Whitworth? and an 1888 vintage pair of hammergun by W. Foerster of Berlin belonging to Kaiserin Auguste Victoria are in the colleciton. The article notes that 8 pairs of 20 bores? are in the collection possibly all by W. Foerster??? A W. Foerster combo of 6.6mm over 20 bore with a 4.5X Goerz scope was used in/for the Auerhahn Balz. Examples from J.P. Sauer, Triebel of Potsdam, Timner of Koblenz, Haetge of Berlin along with others were also present. It appears that W. Foerster made a pair of selfcocking 20 bore scatterguns that the Kaiser really favored for chasing fowl and hair. He began with cartridges loaded with some British black powder but found it too powerful and switched to yellow coloured cartridges by Vereinigten Koeln-Rottweiler Pulverfabriken.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

First of all sorry for the bad quality of this photographs, but in overall every important detail is shown there and as you see, work is done in pure English style and it’s absolutely handmade. I will start to talk about things that can’t be shown on the photos. Sincerely, the greatest discovery for me was the mechanism, I have never seen mechanism assembled with such novice springs of that time, I have searched every firearm mechanisms and as far as I verified - it’s unique. Also I was surprised seeing such system of lock on it. It’s known as “Webley’s lock” and i can only say that it’s very rare. I saw it only once on “Grant” Also, when I looked into the mechanism I was amazed with the fact that on every detail, even on the smallest clinchers, there was engraved number (2).
To be objective, I will say here that in addition I’m the owner of Purdey’s, Holland & Holland, Lancaster and more best known first class shotguns, and I will tell you in secret that despite of my knowledge in firearms I knew nothing about W.Foerster before. Maybe because that, in general I was collecting shotguns made by English gunsmiths. But, since I faced this shotgun gradually I assured that his German author was making the better English style shotguns, then his English colleagues. In overall I wanted to say that I am very surprised of the performance level of this gunsmith and especially im pleased with the fact that his works are rare and is not widespread.

Nikoloz:

You should trade in those 2nd rate weapons you mentioned, continue your quest for more examples by W. Foerster and then concentrate your acquistions around Henrich Scherping of Hannover as well as examples by the likes of Frantisek Faukner of Prague and Johann Kalezky of Wien????? I don't think you will be disappointed by any means. On a more serious note, if you desire weapons with a British flare, search this site for examples by Heinrich Scherping. But what you are going to find is that these fellas were actually firearms merchants and they sourced the craftsmen of Belgium, Ferlach, Suhl, Weipert & Zella-Mehlis for components, longarms in the white or completed examples.

I think these pics may be of a W. Foerster for the Kaiser.





Original image was compressed for some reason.


W. Foerster with a great deal of British influence.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

W. Foerster Berlin 12 bore with London reproof on 70mm chambers



8x57 DR

When information on those elusive gunmakers/firearms merchants/waffenh�ndler like Otto Bock, etc., is rediscovered, it would seem that the discovered info would point to the big book of info, but evidently it doesn't exist or hasn't been scanned yet?? Anyway, I made another stab at an attempt to unearth info on ole W. Foerster of Berlin(not to be confused with Max von F�rster( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Foerster ) who was into powder, had a facility at Walsrode in 1878 and may have had a shop in Berlin) but the info is still very scarce. But I can state that if you see a hammerless sporting weapon with similar bolsters, fences(please correct me Roger), probability is about split for it being retailed by either W. Foerster or O. Geyger. But if it is pinned, it is more than likely that of W. Foerster, who seems to have sourced his gesteck from Liege and then had it completed and proofed in German. And it may be that many firearms merhants/waffenh�ndler did the same but the marks were worked off the components or hidden. W. Forester looks to have sourced the craftsmen at Liege early on and I would say it increased his profit margins. Post 1900, Jupille, Belgium was a close knit family of tube making craftsmen who had the exclusive right to produce Krupp steel tubes and had the potential to roll out up to 2k per day. The run of the mill Krupp tubes prior to WWI more than likely have their origins here.

Getting back to W. Foerster, he looks to have been in business about the time as H. Barella or W. Foerster's father was also a gunsmith. I've located adverts from the mid 1840s were a gunmaker named F�rster at Markgrafenstra�e 19 was peddling specialized bullets in Berlin and I assume this to be the same fella. W. Foerster was quite the marksman, as were most or many of the sporting weapons retailers and by the mid 1860s W. Foerster had some sporting weapons design of his own which he used in competition with others like Paul Mauser and possibly the Kaiser himself, or W. Foerster was able to achieve similar numbers. Maybe his design was something akin to the one below?


from http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/180


For now I would assume his appointment as K�niglich Hofb�chsenmacher was post 1870(& pre-1883 - see previous page onCarl(1801-1883) von Preussen) and I hope the date range can be narrowed. W. Foerster hobnobbed with the elite furnishing them with his wares as well as shooting with them. This seems to be typical of suppliers to the Royal Courts and they spent more time competing and working on sales than gunmaking, but I don't think that to be an excuse for not making their wares. I can't say if he had any heirs or assigns but by WWI a businessman named Paul Schmidt was the owner and as typical he could have very well been W. Foerster's son-in-law had W. Foerster had any children. Info on the firm post WWI escapes me for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

here

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3880802

you see an interesting double rifle, signatures of W. F�rster on the action, and H. Barella on the barrels.

This is a funny piece, appears restored / reworked / actually "pimped".
And I wonder about those fake side plates and the safety switch to the left of the lever, with engraving in completely different style, a later addition?? And why would anyone in Europe engrave a whitetail deer ??

Regards,
fuhrmann

fuhrmann: thanks for following along and providing input. Lovely find and it piques Baumgarten's and my interest in the source of the Muzzelverschlu� as well as being chambered in 9.3X74R. Here it would seem that W. Foerster sourced H. Barella who in turn sourced one or all of the Merkel Boys. H. Barella and the Boys Merkel had strong sourcing ties. H. Barella acquired other concerns and might have had a stake in W. Foerster? It may be that a pinned receiver was a condition for W. Foerster's wares. Like you, I too think the side plates and selector was a later addition to the 9.3X74R Muzzelverschlu�. The frame at least experienced proof twice with the 1st pass looking to be in 1925. As stated a later pass may have been in 1934. Very unique Hubertus Cross on the underside of the muzzle.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I have also wondered about this bulge under the muzzles. I have never seen something like this, what's the function? Additional weight for balancing the gun, or some means to influence regulation of the barrels? original or later addition?

In contrast to the fine engraving of the action, that Hubertus cross IMO looks cheap and out of place....

Martin

What the hell?

I don't even want to go down the road of wondering what the thought process was in "fix'n" the 9.3X74R clamshell. It's a shame to see such a fine piece fall into the hands of such an "artist", or something.

Buchseman

Yeah, Baumgarten the DR must have had some "slight" head of the stock damage and in 1934 a repair was attempted.



Finally, after searching & searching I finally stumbled across a late 1872 advert of W. Foerster touting his dubbed title of HofB�chsenmacher. So by 1871, or very early 1872, W. Foerster received his Royal Warrant while at Berlin Taubenstra�e 45.


Jagdgewehre und Ger�tschaften(?) Patronen in allen Calibern(??) empfiehlt

Heinrich Barella, H. Leue & Fritz Timpe, W. Foerster, A. Berger, C.B. Merrem, who was peddling Val. Chr. Schilling's wares, along with Franz Xaver Baader all were at this time firmly holding to the Lefaucheux platform for their sporting weapons as it was the staple. Johann Paul Miller(Miller & Greiss) hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1868 and acquired the Franz Xaver Baader firm in 1873, one year prior to Baader's death. Makes one wonder if he was a son-in-law.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

At the risk of being damned as pedantic, what you are talking about is the Muschelverschlu� (literally shell or clamshell action).

Indeed you are spot on and I don't think we are anywhere close to be donnish.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I just happened across this beautiful example of the above: http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3859202

If the pairing is correct of the W. Foerster DR & the case and with the other Barella-Foerster DR it would seem that W. Foerster was placing orders with H. Barella who in turn was sourcing some of the Brothers Merkel.


http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2322

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

J. Miller & Valentin Grei� with 1st proof in final state.





Must have been a rebarrel effort in 1942.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse