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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
Interesting stuff here!!
I don't know Chuck if CSM has the same or equal 'rights' that USRAC had to stamp the name Winchester and other appropriate markings on their barrels.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
The right to use the Winchester name on guns must have been exclusive to USRAC, since CSM could not mark their's with it. I couldn't find any use of the Winchester name on CSM website. I suspect he can't use it even in reference.
Last edited by Chuck H; 04/16/11 01:06 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 197 Likes: 5
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 197 Likes: 5 |
The last I knew one COULD by a M21 from CMSC stamped "Winchester". However, at that time it was an additional $50,000.00 or so just to pay for the use of the name. This was a few years back.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
Well, that clears everything up.
If USRAC had the 'rights' to build other Winchesters like the M92 or the Henry as opposed to Uberti, or the ultimate would be the Model 12, they would still be in business today, a real shame.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 406 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 406 Likes: 1 |
Five pages of strong opinions about a $100k "fancy shotgun" that few of us could afford to buy???
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393 |
Must be a slow night, Jerry!
Too bad I won't be able to shake your hand at Grandpa's this year as we both have other commitments.
I wonder what the warranty is on that gaudy gun if the diamonds jump out under recoil. Perhaps it is not meant to be fired, ever.
Amazing what turns up on this show!
Mike
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106 |
It never ceases to amaze me how many pristine Model 21's CSMC has on their web site which they say are Winchester made guns...and lots of them are deluxe with high prices on them. I called on a couple nice ones and they didn't letter with the records at Buffalo Bill. I wonder where they come up with all these super nice guns?? It's almost like they have cornered the market on them. I guess if you are going to buy a high priced model 21 you better pay attention and make sure it letters.....although I had one prominent gun dealer tell me that letters have even been 'slipped in' at Cody by people doing ' research', etc??? And then I guess all bets would be off.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 803
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 803 |
Based on CSM making the M21, Olin must not have licensed it to USRAC.
Didn't USRAC shut down their US facilities in 06? CSMC purchased the tooling for the Model 21 from USRAC and I believe finished the few guns that were left for USRAC. CSMC continues to manufactures the Model 21 without the Winchester name. In 1991 Tony told me I could have a 'Grand Royal' with the Winchester name for $55KUSD. The term 'Model 21' or 'Model 21 Shotgun' has never been Trademarked by anyone. USRAC did have a license from Olin to use the 'Winchester' name on its firearms including the Model 21. After USRAC ceased to exist, Olin stills retains the rights to the 'Winchester' name and in fact licenses the 'Winchester' name currently to FN which is again producing a rifle term the 'Model 70' with the Winchester name.-Dick
Last edited by Dick_dup1; 04/17/11 10:58 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
Dick,
From what I can find on the web, USRAC was taken over by FN way back in 1989.
Did USRAC/FN ever produce the M21? When did CSM get the drawings/tooling? From whom, FN or Olin?
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 803
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 803 |
Pauline Muerrle has asked me to Post the following because she cannot get Registered on this site.
"There were four authentic Winchester factory Grand Royals produced. The first one was the prototype done for John Olin. The serial no. is W9190. It was not finished in time to show Mr. Olin before he passed away in 1982. The original project was started in late 1979. The Winchester Custom Shop handled all of the manufacture except the engraving which was executed by Alvin White. This gun is pictured in The Winchester Book of Engraving by RL Wilson. This Grand Royal had Gold Inlays of John Olins head, King Buck his prize lab and his other favorite dog Satans Sizzler. There is elaborate scrollwork and gold line work. It is very intricate yet tasteful engraving unlike the gaudy specimen that is on CSMC's website.
The three other Grand royals were all produced in the Winchester Custom Shop, again except for the engraving which one other was done by Alvin White and the other two done by Howard Dove. I have original factory documentation on the three that were produced after the Olin gun. These three are consecutively seial numbered and were produced in 1980. The engraving pattern was different than the Olin gun but featured elaborate scrollwork and inlaid gold. Again, these three were very tastefully engraved. They did not have embedded jewels or other "over the top" embellishments."
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