doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Reduced Value of British BoxLock Gameguns?

Ted, you're sounding like a prophet of doom and gloom. To start with, CIP has come up with guidance on steel shot loads for both 12's and 20's at "ordinary" CIP proof levels (850 bars). Those guns will be limited in both shot size and velocity, but then they're somewhat limited already, even with lead loads--but certainly adequate for American upland shooting, on birds up to and including pheasants. The 2 1/2" 12ga would become problematic for pheasant hunting with CIP standard steel loads, and the 2 1/2" 20ga wouldn't be useful for birds any larger or tougher than ruffed grouse. But I don't think we're going to be faced with a choice of either hanging them on the walls or shooting them only with very expensive nontox alternatives suitable for guns that won't handle American steel.

Secondly, "mandatory nontoxic laws" have not done well this year. The EPA has determined that it cannot regulate lead in ammunition as a result of legislation passed by Congress, and it's highly unlikely the current Congress will give them that authority. Therefore, all regulation of lead shot for other than migratory birds would have to come from the states. Just in the last few months, SD rejected a proposal to require nontox for hunting along roadways. The governor shot down an attempt to expand nontox requirements on public hunting areas in Iowa. The MT legislature passed a bill revoking the state game agency's authority to regulate ammunition. And here in WI, sportsmen at the spring DNR meetings voted by a strong majority against a DNR proposal to require nontoxic shot on all DNR-controlled land. That was an advisory vote only, but with the current administration in Madison and new leadership at the DNR, that proposal is quite likely to die as well.

The upshot is that additional nontox requirements established by the states are only inevitable where hunters and shooters don't stand up and ask for good scientific evidence as to why the changes are necessary. Pressure on politicians appears to be working quite well here.

I'll try to shed a bit of personal insight - I own 8 shotguns and I shoot all of them. None are safe queens and none are collectibles that don't go out in the rain. They range from a Victor Sarasqueta to an Arrizabalaga in price with Merkels and AyA in between. I have been watching the markets closely for a year or so with the possible intent of adding one more gun and find that a quality gun in the sub-40K range is tough to find and prices are flexible only when there's a problem (however slight) with the gun.

This mirrors exactly what's going on in other discretionary markets. I had two pieces of art that I wanted to sell and for the past year or so had a lot of bottom-feeders make ludicrous offers with the same general argument that I was better off with a small amount of money than none. I don't need a bottom-feeder telling me what "I'm better off" with and they might have been more successful had they simply said they can't afford to pay my price.

The Walmart philosophy works in Walmart but not necessarily in other areas.

Now, of course, if the economy totally tanks and people start going hungry then the situation changes (maybe) but even in the darkest days of the Great Depression luxury goods were selling well.

Whenever dealers in higher-end stuff sell something they encounter a difficulty in replacing it with a similar-value item for inventory. Sometimes it isn't possible and then their inventory quality or quantity falls and the sort of client they try to attract (i.e. people with money) are less likely to call upon them. A dealer's inventory is his public face and carrying a good inventory is just another cost of doing business.

Please let me respectfully disagree with this commentary. Luxury goods are selling very briskly indeed. Tiffany stock has gone up; they had one of their best quarters; Louis Vuitton stuff is selling; high-end shops is NY, London and other cities are jammed. Yacht builders are booked up years in advance.

Oddly enough, whenever I visit the London gunmakers they have young men looking over (and buying) their doubles.

I have someone in my family that deals in collector auto's. His view over the past 5 years:
High-end stuff is still being bought and sold. It's the mid-tier, to lower-end stuff that isn't moving.
These are autos that Joe Middle Class auto enthusiast buys and sells. The rich, high-end guys are not hurting.
Seems like the same can be said for the gun market.
On another note, a big box store in my area has had a fine condition European 16 gauge behind the glass for close to 5 years.
Every time I'm in that store, I make a point to check to see if the gun is still there and to see if they've adjusted the price on it.
Yes, it's still there, no they haven't adjusted the price. IMO, asking price does not reflect reality (even 5 years ago)
but I don't think this retailer is concerned with real world pricing.
Apparently they don't need to move this piece of inventory real badly and are willing to sit and wait till
the right pigeon comes along.
Most all of the big box stores do this with used guns. Drives me nuts.

I think if you look at Cabela's inventory, you can find quite a few guns on which they've dropped prices. Scheel's used to have (may still have) a policy of adjusting prices on used guns after a set period of time I believe. I think it might have been a year. And even if the sticker price has not been adjusted, I think some dealers will be more open to a lower offer on a gun they've had some time than on one they just acquired.

Larry,
BY ALL MEANS you should use steel loads in your doubles. There will then be that many fewer good guns on the market. HA,HA!
You can believe what you want to Larry, but, none of my doubles needs to get steel shot run in it at this time. Key words being "at this time".

But, ask yourself if you know of a younger than 30 year old hunter ( I doubt it). And, then ask yourself what was the last gun that hunter bought.
I ran into "Kutter" (posts here) one time in the grouse woods up here, and I think he had a double-I had my Darne, and the retired super model along. But, I don't see people with doubles, as a rule of thumb.

Best,
Ted

Please LORD. Don't make use shoot anything but lead in our doubles or any other gun for that matter for upland hunting. Please, please please!!

I will not only second that but I refuse to shoot anything but lead for upland. When they mandated steel shot for waterfowl I quit waterfowling. If they mandate steel for upland I own enough land that I can hunt my property the way I damn well please.

Corkdecoy,In the early 1970,s I was a frequent visitor to William Powell,s shop on Carrs Lane in Birmingham.As a result I had some interesting discussions with Mr Powell Senior[Father of Peter]. On one such visit I was shown a 12g Purdey hammer gun with Whitworth steel barrels, price 95 pounds,by comparison a 12G AYA #2 cost 106 pounds.Mr Powell,s comment;"Best British hammer guns are the most undervalued antique in Britain today!"We are aware,or should be, that Mr Powell was absolutely correct in his assessment! [Sorry to say I did not purchase the Purdey!]
In my opinion, the same is true today for Best British box locks provided that they are in origional condition, in particular none ejectors.Now could be the time to consider buying such guns for sport or investment.

Thanks Roy for that advice. That is my goal and eventually I will find one just as you describe!