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Joined: Jan 2002
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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Larry,
BY ALL MEANS you should use steel loads in your doubles. There will then be that many fewer good guns on the market. HA,HA!
You can believe what you want to Larry, but, none of my doubles needs to get steel shot run in it at this time. Key words being "at this time".

But, ask yourself if you know of a younger than 30 year old hunter ( I doubt it). And, then ask yourself what was the last gun that hunter bought.
I ran into "Kutter" (posts here) one time in the grouse woods up here, and I think he had a double-I had my Darne, and the retired super model along. But, I don't see people with doubles, as a rule of thumb.

Best,
Ted


Ted--You're missing my message. Those of us not afraid to stand up and ask for the "good science" behind any requirements for steel on upland game are WINNING. That being said, there's no problem shooting steel of sizes suitable for upland birds in any gun proofed for modern American loads and choked no tighter than mod. The CIP regs get quite specific about what steel (velocity and shot size) should be shot through guns from their countries, including those proofed to the lower (than American) CIP standard. Their guidance is quite conservative.

Right on one of these forums--maybe not this one, can't recall for sure--a father was reporting on a teenage son who had "passed muster" with a sxs and was going to shoot one in an upcoming sxs event. If you go over to Upland Journal, you will find some young doublegun enthusiasts, including at least one who's still an undergraduate in college. And frankly, most of us gravitated to sxs after starting off with something else--the change often coming when we reached the stage of having a greater interest in how we bag birds, rather than how many we bag. Much of the choice of gun is also related to economics, and you can buy a much higher quality auto, pump, or OU for less than you'd pay for the same quality sxs--especially if you're talking new.

Final question, Ted: How many sxs only events did you know of, say 20 years ago? How many are there now? Let's see, just the big ones: Vintager, Southern, Northeast, UP Classic. I know of other somewhat smaller ones in MT, MN, WI . . . and I'm sure other guys here could add even more to the list. Nothing to rival Cowboy Action Shooting (which also has a tie-in to the sxs revival), but it's a real trend that does not seem to be disappearing or diminishing.

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You're missing MY message, Larry-the guys at those events have a pretty good shok of gray hair, if you bother to look.
Every state you mentioned, to a one, sold fewer hunting licenses, of any type, than they did 10 years ago. Typically, a lot fewer. Vintagers fees don't support the DNR.
I can't even say I know any kids who pursue hunting from my group of friends. I have hopes for one, but, it hasn't happened yet.
Not sure who will be hunting in 30 seasons, but, you can bet there will be fewer of them.
And, fewer doubles, too.

Best,
Ted

Best,
Ted

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My 3 children shoot doubles, but no British boxlocks. They shoot LC Smiths.

On a slightly different twist to this, I bought two Spanish boxlocks via Britain in the last year for very little money. An AYA and an Uggie. I wasn't looking, but the prices were irresistible. Both were set up for the British market, (English stocks, no sling swivels, light).

It seems to me the market for low-end guns, (<1k), is awash with deals.

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Kind'a like the mail order bride business...

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"Collectible" guns are still selling well -- in the case of British guns, say, small bores, big bores and original-condition best guns from the very best London makers. These are investment grade guns.

I think there is a glut of ordinary 12-ga guns (bog-standard boxlocks, well-used sidelocks, Spanish guns, production O/Us, etc.) on the market, and for them it is indeed a buyers market.

Anecdotally, the market appears well saturated: at the side-by-side shows I see the same folks every year, only fewer of them and older with each passing year. I would suggest bird hunting -- which would drive the game-gun market -- is also facing major problems -- bobwhites are essentially recreationally extinct in the Southeast, quail pops are crashing in Texas, the Midwest has got pheasant problems in some states, the Northeast is more crowded with houses in old coverts every year, the list goes sadly on. The few young folks I see coming into shooting, in this neck of the woods anyhow, are duck hunters and they all to a man use modern autoloaders, which are very very good. (Does anyone know of states where resident small-game license sales are increasing?)

To get back to the original question, there are plenty of bargains to be had -- but you may need to bargain for them.

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No question upland game hunting is in trouble in quite a few places. Hunting as a whole, however, isn't really. More of a case of a transition to deer and turkey hunting. But if you want to see hunting that's in trouble compared to the past, look at the number of people who hunt rabbits and squirrels. Serious decline there.

One thing that's happened is that upland hunters have become significantly more mobile. Ever since 2002, for example, there have been more nonresident pheasant hunters in SD than residents--even though resident pheasant hunter numbers have not changed much in the last 25 years. Back in the late 50's-early 60's, when even more pheasants were being killed in SD than they are today, there were only half as many nonresident pheasant hunters. And there were more pheasant hunters in SD, total, in 2008 than there had been in any year since 1963. So in some cases, hunters are compensating for a lack of local birds by traveling to where there are birds. Unfortunately, that does not work well in the case of bobwhites in recent years, because there just haven't been very many anywhere.

As for not seeing young hunters . . . Ted, maybe you ought to volunteer as a hunter education instructor. We taught 3 classes a year at the local Izaak Walton facility in Story County when I lived in Iowa. A class numbering in the 40's was small. And ours were not the only classes in the area.

Last edited by L. Brown; 06/06/11 07:36 AM.
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown

As for not seeing young hunters . . . Ted, maybe you ought to volunteer as a hunter education instructor. We taught 3 classes a year at the local Izaak Walton facility in Story County when I lived in Iowa. A class numbering in the 40's was small. And ours were not the only classes in the area.


Sadly, hunter education is probably the single most effective driver of the trends and possible outcomes identified by Ted Schefelbein. To suggest he volunteer to teach one is vicious irony.

If someone doesnít take the ridiculous hunterís education class as a youth it is pretty much guaranteed they will never ever be a hunter (or become consumers of hunting supplies such as SxS box locks). Plenty of people have discretionary income to spend on hobbies. Hunterís safety is very effective in directing their money toward other pastimes.

I have plenty of 20 and 30 something friends and coworkers who have shown an interest in trying hunting. When they discover they canít buy a license because they didnít take a silly course for middle school kids it generally ends right there.

Go ahead and jump down my throat over calling hunter ed. ridiculous. Any curriculum with a 100% pass rate is suspect. It is mainly gate keeping in our regulation happy society and a perversion of the right to hunt (if there is such a right, every right seems to be a privilege now day). I suspect a good percentage of grey hairs donít mind gate keeping the sport.

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Ryan, I'm as Libertarian as they come, but the hunter's safety class idea was accepted long ago by the hunters themselves as a way of saving the sport.

The accident rate was unacceptable to the point that worse legislation was inevitable unless positive steps were taken to make things safer.

Firearm related hunting accidents have plummeted as a result. Not just been reduced, but nearly eliminated. It's been a huge success.

A person unwilling to take a class to learn about something he has virtually no knowledge of is perhaps better off not becoming a participant in a sport where his actions could well effect the future freedoms of others.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Iím agreeable that people should wish to be knowledgeable in activities they participate in but this putting the cart before the horse. Usually folks donít dive head long into a new hobby. They try it a few times and see if it is for them. Hunterís safety is a barrier to even trying. I canít think of many other leisure pursuits which require training before you can even try. No wonder there are fewer hunting license sales.

Whatever the safety merits, hunterís safety does have the unintended consequence of excluding huge numbers of people from trying hunting. In some instances this is probably good. In the case of a 30 something professional introduced to sporting clays at a corporate outing who would now like to have a go at some dovesÖI donít think so.

Many leisure activities are much more dangerous than hunting and we donít require mandatory training. I guess because firearms are involved so we lose perspective and roll over.

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Maybe I'm missing something here. Is there some reason an adult can't take a hunter safety course and therefore qualify to buy a license?
Jim


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
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