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Joined: Mar 2010
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr

Yes, Vihta Vuori. No, possibly not a true substitute for BP but they too have been in operation for quite some time and some of their old powders replicate(closely or loosely???) those powders used in the period when loads were converted from BP to semi-smokeless. Ford put me on a trail of VV N140 where Axel E had noted that VV N140 had a similar burn rate to R5(Rottweil) and the results were stellar.

https://www.lhs-germany.de/en/powder/smokeless-powder/rottweil/

So I think I would migrate from BP to 4198, whatever, & then over to VV. Seems one has to match the powder to the chamber?



Raimey,
if anybody knows about this, then it will be Axel.
From my limited experience, I see no point in trying VV 140. Sure, it may be around for a long time, but all those rifle powders have the same disadvantage: they have not enough bulk or volume to fill those old big BP cases.
"to match the powder to the chamber?" if that means "always work up a new load carefully" I will agree.

fuhrmann

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
A knowledgeable cartridge collector in Germany gives it as the 10X60R Roth and to fill the case to the base of the bullet w/ black powder & let if fly. Pretty corrosive I must say.


Sure, using BP and "filling up the case" is an easier approach than NfB.
Still there are some complications: "Any black powder" will NOT do.
E.g. you can generate a lot of bang and peak pressure with too fine BP.
Using over-powder wads or not is the next question.
Bullet choice will be critical to get sufficient accuracy
(BTW, why zinc bullets? One more complication.)

Corrosion can be handled by good cleaning procedures, for rifle AND cases..It is messy, agreed!

fuhrmann

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Originally Posted By: fuhrmann

(BTW, why zinc bullets? One more complication.
fuhrmann


No, just a generic question as I see more & more Zinc options when searching for bullets. Just wondered who in the world was shooting them and if the loads were similar.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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fuhrmann,
I haven't done that much research, but I don't think you will find R5 in many large BP cases. The discussion wasn't about using VV N140 instead of black powder, rather it was about using it instead of R5.
Mike

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Mike

did I miss something?
IMO the discussion here is about loading a 10x60R Roth which is an old BP number, with some nitro substitutes, such as the historic R5 or a modern substitute.
In fact the 1940 RWS Handbook specifies R5 for the 9,3x72R (dimensions not so far away from 10x60R...), but as far as I can see only for the more potent nitro loads.

fuhrmann

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My point was that during the time of the conversion from BP load to semi-smokeless, cordite, whatever, then someone, somehow transitioned to the historic R5(Rottweil), whatever. So we have a weak, possibly indirect, link to the past.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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furman,
I merely passed along to Raimey, Axle's finding that the burning rate of VV N140 is very close to R5( previously R5 was said to be between 3031 and 4064). This is useful info where you can find a load with R5, but I wouldn't try to extend the comparison to black powder. If I were loading for a 10x60, I would likely use Unique, 4198, or 5744, maybe 4895.
Mike

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Gentlemen
thanks for the explanation!
It seems I had a different angle of view then.
fuhrmann

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About 40 grains of Pyrodex RS(dropped a few cylinders) behind a 180 grain cast lead bullet resulted in 530 m/s & at 35 paces I actually hit the bullseye. Not sure 'bout the card just yet. Just by feel, I think it needs a little more power behind it. Possibly walk up toward 3,1 grammes & see how that does.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Now 45 grains of Pyrodex RS, which borders heavily on a compressed load, behind a 180 grain Cast bullet for 4 loads.

Average velocity 490 m/s with the 4 shots in a vertical column with a max separation of say 4". Actually the other 3 were clustered on the top right corner of the bullseye with one outlier down below. Boy that Pyrodex RS really colours the cases. Having a slight issue w/ stuck cases.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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