doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com British Engraving, of sorts......

Some had trade mark animal like a pointer on the trigger guard of a William Pape which became a known thing to look for on original papes.

T

I'd go with jOe's answer.

I believe some of the birds on 1880 W&C Scotts Premiers for the American market were definitely fashioned after the Audobon drawings.

Sorry KK, I just don't think you can so easily separate engravers from their contemporary art. Typically, decorative arts (carving, wallpapers, etc.) are influenced by other artistic styles, rather than the other way around. Look at jewelers and jewelry engraving - their work usually reflects other artistic influence (Paloma Picasso for instance). In this case, most gun engravers would have been mimicing the most obvious examples available to them.

In some instances, they were engraving a design supplied by the customer, who may have used a hunting print as a model.

You can actually find Art Deco shotgun engraving:


You can see the photo at: Art Deco Browning


I saw a Westley Richards sxs a year or so ago with Art Deco engraving - didn't look right to my tastes.

Middle of 19th century would be around 1850.

I can't say I've seen many guns from that era period. Much less any guns from that era with engraving of animals.

The stylization of animal depiction can most probably be dated through 1920 on Breech Loading Guns. The influence of Harry Kell on English Game scene engraving begins in the following decade. His increasingly natural game scenes raised the expectations of clients and as a result forced the rest of the gun engravers to strive for greater realism. General improvements in photography allowed for action photos rather than merely post hunt trophies laid out before the seated shot.Prior to this there were a number of Issues which restricted the ability of a poorly educated city dweller who happened to work as a gun engraver from producing life like depiction.
Ignorance/Lack of formal art training
Lack of live natural subjects
Apprenticeship system which merely passed down the prior generations style .
Lack of financial incentives.
Sometimes even the best Intentions get screwed up. I worked on my neighbours Turkey Farm just south of Birmingham in the 1960's. A gun engraver asked to photograph Turkeys for a project he was working on. "Not the white ones but the Natural dark ones". I escorted him to a pen of large Norfolk Bronze catering size birds where he clicked away and left to return to his shop. I don't know for sure but believe his labors may have resulted in the gun shown on page 152 of Geoffrey Boothroyds Sidelocks & Boxlocks. Beautiful pair of Turkeys, Tom at full strut ,plumage correct however completely devoid of any beard as these had been bred out of Domestic turkeys.!!!
Prior to Kell the following were Standard
Tiger=Shop cat with stripes
Leopard=Shop cat with dots
Pheasant=As hanging in butchers shop,rotated 90 degress add two legs.
It has to be said that Scotts birds were an exception as one of the Scotts took formal art classes and copied accurately from contemporary lithographs made by wildlife artists of the day.
Doug Tate has an excellent book British Gun Engraving which illustrates the transition to realism.

I guess ultimately the most convincing opinion(s) brought out here, for me anyway, would be the engravers' basic unfamiliarity with the animals being depicted. The only red herring in this reasoning is that, as Franc mentioned, dogs and birds were quite familiar, and yet they got the same treatment.

As to pinning it down to a time period, that's up for grabs. Ditto for when the engraving style changed to more realistic depictions.

More could be discussed, but I'm afraid the only result would be an acceleration of the merry-go-round.

Many thanks to all who weighed in on this topic. To me, it's just one more fascinating, intriguing aspect of these beautiful old guns we find so entrancing. I'm sure glad they're still around!

Respecting Audubon's prints, it needs be remembered that the animals he depicted were posed in contorted positions so as to fit onto the paper. He was limited thusly because he wanted to present everything life-size. Can you imagine the size of the book necessary to present a blue heron life-sized?

And none of them were posed "from life". Maybe "from recently alive", but not from life.

As to the Germans, a good portion of their animal engraving is very well done, but there was a whole industry of carving and engraving in Germany. Then again, there are those cartoon ducks on the floorplates of some Simsons. Shoulda stuck with foliage and arabesques....

IIRC, some of the graded Ithacas had a very art deco (influenced) engraving style, which was executed very well.

But, as to the style of gun engraving, I think it needs be remembered that the demographic and tastes of gun buyers and what they will spring for, will dictate what the engravers are told to engrave and, by extension, what we see surviving today. I think it is fair to say that a substantial proportion of gun buyers, particularly in the higher-wealth demographic, are tradition-bound and therefore conservative in their tastes in art and otherwise. On the one hand, when they first come to realization, new artistic styles are often quite upsetting to the money people. I recall, by way of example, that Stravinsky's works (now recognized as genius) caused riots when premiered. On the other hand, the people who can appreciate new styles are often too broke to buy them. You're not going to see garret-dwelling starving artists whose genius is recognized by the market thirty years in the future (to the profit of the patrons who bought their work for a song when it was new) going out and dropping a pile of money on a best shotgun engraved in a style to match the avant garde of that day.

Answer me this: if you had the money, and as well done as this is (and it's world-class), would you buy it, carry it, shoot it? Would you go for something like it, in a similar style though not as extensively, expensively or exuberantly done? http://picasaweb.google.com/117818889234...GravureEnCours#
more
https://picasaweb.google.com/117818889234850313475/PhotosDu410Termine#

The patron explained his thinking and collaboration with the artist
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=90872&sid=6bf916bb857cd10c214cede94378d021

I'm willing to bet that a lot of you would get turned off by it enough that you would pass on buying it, in favor of something more realistic and traditional, like English rose-and-scroll. And, if the market won't support it, it won't appear unless someone makes and pays for a special order.

Fine double shotguns are, at base, a mark of membership in the bourgoisie or elite demographics of society and reflect the tastes of those demographics - conservative, reserved, evergreen (they'll have to be sold some day). Not cutting edge.

The era of �stylized� or �caricature� birds and animals on English shotguns (Scotland was different) begins in earnest with William Palmer (1737 � 1812). (A caricature is a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness.)

You will see earlier examples certainly (Robert Rowland�s guns, circa 1718) but broadly, grossly, generally, the trend begins with Palmer. Because he was one of the earliest engravers who consistently specialized in guns (for the likes of the Manton�s) he was able to develop a method which produced recognizable images with just a few strokes of the graver. Prior to this guns were engraved by men from other metalworking trades such as jewelry. The end came with the emergence of exaggerated realism at the turn of the twentieth century in the hands of Harry Kell and his contemporaries. Na�ve engraving, as it is commonly called, spanned approximately the Victorian era.

What I learnt while researching British Gun Engraving was that na�ve engraving had several components. First the artisans were urban people who rarely saw game or indeed shot the guns they engraved. Second price was a serious consideration. Typically a gunmaker would request two penneth of engraving or sixpence worth if the gun was really special. Certainly a style emerged, or at least a consensus of what was appropriate, but this was more by default than design. It�s a style that ran concurrently with others so it�s not much use when trying to date shotguns.

I hope this helps. With gratitude to Hugh Lomas.