doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Lee enfield sporterized by W.W Greener.

Very interesting! How did you come by this information? Where can I learn more about this?

ilikedoubles yes it is

Pics seem to show a military LSA action (London Small Arms) from a Magazine Lee Enfield MkI (L.E. I)
What missing from the socket marking is the Crown/VR and the mfg'r date. But I think the engraving was done to nicely cover those areas where that info was removed.

These MkI MLE rifles were made from 1895 into late 1899 when the pattern was changed to the MkI*.


On the left side of the socket the rear volley sight and spring would have been in place on a military rifle. It's cut at the upper portion w/ pivot and the spring retainer screw hole may have been filled and engraved over. I think I can see that in the pic but w/o seeing something like that in hand or with better closeups,,it's all just a guess.

A carbine action would have avoided the need as they didn't have volley sights, but the action would have been marked L.E.C on the right side (Lee enfield Carbine) instead of L.E.

Everything else looks pretty much Lee sporter. I'm used to seeing a vernier on the rear sight base but there are so many sight combinations, who knows what to expect on these.
The stock and forend look as if they could be on any other Lee Sporter I've seen.

The bolt dust cover is missing. Maybe purposely if the lugs on the boltbody are trimmed so it can't be attached. Not everyone liked those and they do have a habit of falling free if not tensioned correctly.

I'm told LSA did build some of the Lee Sporters. Question is wether they used a commercial marked action (I always assumed they did,,bad to assume). Perhaps they did not. BSA use a commercial marked and proofed action & bbl.
When that question is answered, then you'll have a better idea wether Greener built/sporterized an X-military rifle, or retailed an LSA built Sporter.

Nice rifle any way you look at it IMHO.

It's not a military action. This was purposely built for commercial sale to civilians. The Crown/VR markings are not missing and were not removed---they were never there. Also, there was never a volley sight on this rifle, and no provision for one.

Be cautious when trying to apply military service dates to commercial rifles. Official military changes (e.g., "adopted in 1895,"or "made obsolete in 1902" etc) have very little relevance for commercial models made for private sale. BSA and LSA offered a .303 carbine years before the British military adopted one, and they continued making Lee Metfords (and Martinis for that matter) for years after they had been "replaced" in British service.

LSA made commercial actions and supplied them to retailers, such as Greener. They could not and did not offer government-stamped, military marked actions or rifles for private sale. Those belonged to the Queen.

If we can see all the markings on this rifle, we can probably date it.

As for being a "Lee Speed," the short answer is yes (at least as I loosely define the term). The long answer is that "Lee Speed" was never really the name of a model of rifle. It was patent acknowledgement that was applied to a rifle during the years when the patent was in effect. Afterwards, it was no longer stamped, but the rifles continued to be made. For convenience, I call all the commercial Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields "Lee Speeds" regardless of whether they have the "Lee Speed Patent" stamp. Other collectors disagree and use the term only if the rifle has the patent stamp.

I agree, it's a nice rifle!

I want to thank everyone for the great info it helps alot. If you had to put a dollar value on this rifle what would I be looking at? roughly.

I would just question,,why would LSA put 'L.E. I' on a commercial 'Lee' sporter rifle.

That is a Military rifle designation, nothing to do with a commercial sporter.
If purpose built as a Commercial Sporter, then the 'L.E.I' means nothing as that designation is for an entirely different configuration, that of a Military rifle.
Why would they (LSA) put it there? It would have no meaning and no business being there.
My point being is that the rifle action came from an X-military rifle.
Again just my opinion, but with my reasoning also.
(My commercial BSA MkI* SMLE and CLLE are both simply marked BSA & Co on the sockets dispite being full military configurations. No military markings or proofs. They were for civilian/private sales. Same as the Lee Sporters.)

As I said, I'd like a closer look at the right & left side of the socket to see if anything was done there.
It's not difficult to fill and disguise the volley site cuts.
The engraving seems to be especially placed to do so on both sides.

I'll remain on the fence w/o a closer look to answer some questions.

If a true commercial sporter, especially an LSA mfg, I'd hazzard a guess at value in the $800/1000 range (303 cal) for the condition.
Better condition, w/dust cover and the value goes into the teens easily.
If a sporter built on an x-military by Greener, then a bit less.
All the above considered w/an excellent bore.

Either way, it's a great rifle.

ilikedoubles, in order to give you an estimate, we need to know about the markings on your rifle---this will tell us when it was made, where it was proofed, and maybe where it's been and any special features the customer might have paid for (like special steel in the barrel, etc.). If you don't want to share that info on the forum, please send me a private message. Also, would you consider filling out my Lee Speed survey? Over the past 5 years, the generosity of collectors worldwide has allowed me to examine (remotely) hundreds of Lee Speed rifles. Every bit of data puts us a step closer to figuring out a reliable dating scheme for these rifles.

Also, can you please tell me more about what "paperwork" is associated with this rifle? This is far more important to my research than anything else about this firearm. Thanks very much!
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The value depends where you live. Lee Speeds are more common in places like NZ and Australia than here in the United States. I'd put the value anywhere between $1000 and $2000 depending on markings and features.

Kutter, regarding the LE I stamp. I don't know (yet) why LSA did this, but they did. I have seen this model designation on more than 30 examples I have logged that were produced over a period of 10 years. You are correct that BSA did not do this, but LSA did, in some cases, during a certain time.

If this is an ex-military rifle, we would see evidence of that (military proofs, military view marks, other military armorer or ownership marks, signs of such marks being removed, signs of military features being removed). All the features and details match those of a genuine pre-1914 commercial sporter. I could be wrong, of course, but let's see what the markings can tell us.

None of what I see in the posted photos is legible.
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Gregdownunder, can you tell anything more about the NZ purchase of BSA commercial Lee Speed actions? Do you have a source for this info, or know someone who does? I am very excited to follow this up.

Thanks very much!

Jc5 im trying to set up a time to meet the man and see the rifle in person. At that time I will take more pics of the firearm and of the documents he says he has. You never know it just may come home with me.

"If purpose built as a Commercial Sporter, then the 'L.E.I' means nothing as that designation is for an entirely different configuration, that of a Military rifle.
Why would they (LSA) put it there? It would have no meaning and no business being there."

Lee Enfield is an acknowledgement of the Lee action and the Enfield way of rifling. It conveys meaning to civilians, like a "Mauser" on a commercial rifle does.

LSA Co ( or BSA & Co) marking conveys meaning to civilians, like a "Mauser" on a commercial rifle does.

'L.E.I' is the same as '98k' on a civilian rifle.

The original Lee Metfords (not conv to charger loading after 1907) never used a letter designation on the socket other than the Mk (I,II, I* ect)
So when the Lee Enfields were patterned, the designation was stamped with letters L.E. I (II,ect) to show the difference.
The bbls are marked on the knoxform 'E' also.

It is a British Military & Commonwealth Military designation for a specific pattern of Magazine, Lee Enfield (Rifle),,the MkI.
That military pattern of rifle saw service from about 1895 to late 1899.
The action itself with little change was used on several different Military 'patterns' of rifles & carbines both Lee Metfords and Enfields till the SMLE was adopted. The action was available as a commercial sporter for years after it was dropped as a Military rifle/carbine.

Would it properly designate the sporter had they used a L.E I* action?
The * notes the deletion of the clearing rod from the MKI pattern along with the groove & hole in the forend and the hole in the nose cap.
What sense would that make to purposely put that Military marking on the Sporter.

To use an already marked military action, yes I suspect so. I brought that up as a theory before in the production of LSA's sporters.
Little is known about them as opposed to the BSA production.
Perhaps LSA just didn't have the facilitys to produce a civilian action and used military ones for their sporters.
..jc5 has brought out a point that LSA may have just marked theirs diffently.

BSA even left off the Lee & Speed designations as soon as the patent ran out.