doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Holt's auction experiences

Is the confusion around the VAT thing?

As I understand it there are two ways VAT can be applied.

1) VAT is applied to the "commission" element of every transation
2) VAT can be applied in total across the total sale price (this is made clear at Holts by a symbol and text at the bottom of the description).

T

I just can't stand it any longer!

Here is the gospel!
The HAMMER price is the amount ex-premium and VAT!
If you have the item shpped out of the country (i.e.England) to the USA you do not pay VAT on the HAMMER price of the item. However you do pay VAT on the Premium. Once the item is shipped, you FAX a copy of the the Way Bill to Holts accounting and they will credit your account or refund you a check. Very simple! Holt's presently charges 22.5% premium, and of course the VAT is presently 20%.

Holt's has a shipping department (Gardiner's, Sotheby, Bonhams,
Christies, do not) For overseas shipping of firearms Holts uses
Harry Gordon or you can use PDQ. Costs for guns runs about 250-275 British pounds.

You can buy an English gun from an American dealer who didn't know what an English gun was 10 years ago! He now buys his Englsh guns in England at the same auction that you go to. When the guns cross the ocean they increase by a factor of 4 to 10!

The simple math is, it is cheaper to spend a little time with proxy bidding, VAT refunds, shipping, money transfer, international phone calls, paper work, than buying a gun from a dealer, who rarely knows about bore measurements, minnimum wall thickness, or even what an oak and leather case is.

ALL the people at Holts are very friendly and eager to help! Their web site is the best and easiest to use of all the auction houses, and I have used them all! I paid an English gentlemen of this forum to evaluate a gun I wanted. All I got were colored pictures. Talk to the people in the gun room the information is there, just ask the right questions. Remember, you buy the barrels when you buy an English gun.

HW Hyatt has it mostly correct....except.

Any gun made from 1899 to present requires a BATF form 6 prior to export.

Not only will you pay holding and storage costs, you'll wait for 6-8 months for that gun to be approved for import. You'll also need a customs broker and FFL to get the lot out of customs and BATF hell on this end.

On guns made after 1899, the notion of an inefficient market between the UK and US isn't the case. The margins would be extremely tight.

In one example, I saw a nice boxlock for 350 GBP. It needed $250 in stock work to be worth $1600-$1800 here in the states. After calculating all the costs involved, the actual cost was about $1350. Tremendous aggravation for a 10% net profit.

Bottom line, it must be a labor of love to import a gun, not a profit scheme.

It is all correct!

I believe the original gentelmans question concerning Holts was experiences, and shipping.

ATF permits, customs, import is another subject, but if you
are game, here goes.

Import licenses are best handled by your FFL importer. British Sporting Arms, Champlain, Griffin & Howe, will handle the paperwork (i.e. ATF import license, customs), PDQ, Harry Gordon, handle the British export. Both of these companies have open export licenses for the United States. The biggest time factor is obtaining the ATF import license which takes about 30 days ( post 1889 firearms) 3-4 days from London to the port of your choice (New York for PDQ) New York or--- for Harry Gordon. For pre 1889 firearms you can have your gun in your hands inside of a week to 10 days or quicker. I have been there, I have done it.

I know nothing about buying a gun in the UK and then importing it to the USA, but when I bought a gun in Paris I was just required to show my US passport and leave with the gun. I stored it at my apartment there until I had the ATF Form 6/ import permit and then just brought the gun to the US as luggage. I filled out the Form6 paper work and a local dealer here in PA signed it for $20. I mailed it to the ATF and they sent me the permit a month later. I had to pay customs duty at the Philadelphia airport when I declared it and showed the Form6 but there were no middlemen involved. Perhaps the law has changed since the Twin Towers attack but last time I was in Paris I asked a gun dealer if things were the same there and he assured me nothing had changed.
nial

I bought a pre-1898 hammer gun at the CLA this summer. I used PDQ to import the gun, fast and easy, I would recommend them. Very professional.

Gnomon, you're right on where VAT is/isn't payable.

The VAT situation is quite simple. VAT is not payable on goods bought by a purchaser from outside the VAT area; however VAT is applicable to services provided within the VAT area, wherever the buyer is based.

Selling the gun to you is a service, so VAT is payable on the auctioneer's premium, but not on the gun itself.

The basic principle is that you can export a physical item (therefore no VAT payable) but you can't export a service (therefore VAT is payable).

The seller can charge you for the administrative side of not paying VAT, and may decline to remove the VAT from a low value item.

You need to ascertain the seller's VAT policy (some sellers are helpful, some are a PITA) and do the math(s) before buying.

N.

I have bought a number if rifles at auction in England. They usually ended up costing about $400.00 to $500.00 to have it boxed up and shipped to the nearest airport to you in the U.S.. It will save you money if you get your gun through customs yourself. Here's how to do it:

1. When you are notified that your gun has arrived at the
airport, drive up to the airline that flew it over and go
to their freight office.

2. Ask for the papers for your gun
3. Take the papers to the U.S. Customs office and have the
gun cleared through customs. They charge a fee and you
will need to find an agent who is familiar with the gun
laws in the U.S.
4. Take the papers back to the airline freight office and
pick up your gun. They typically charge a "handling fee"
which means a guy will hand you your gun and demand that
you pay them up to $20.00 for picking up and giving it
to you.
5. I have ONLY shipped in rifles that were pre 1898. I don't
know what the deal would be for a post 1898 gun.
6. If you have a broker get the gun through customs it will
be expensive!

I too am very concerned about the added on costs when you buy a gun at auction anymore. A 25% premium is outrageous.

I have contacted Holt's by phone many times and they will give you a very honest opinion of any gun that you ask them about and they will answer any question honestly. When I have purchased a gun through Holts (after a phone conversation with them about condition) I find that the rifles were actually somewhat better than described.

I have bought over 100 guns from auctions in the U.K.: Bonham's, Holt's and Gavin Gardiner. I have used John Farugia of Cheshire Gun Room, Stockport to collect the guns and ship them to me. The total cost was @ $100.00 USD per gun. The last was several years ago but I don't think the cost has gone up that much. John is an experienced gunsmith who will attend the auction preview & give you an honest assessment of a gun that you might wish to purchase and handle it all (except for the BATF Form 6 that you must do on any gun post 1898) John is a great guy to deal with. One word of caution, however. Do not let them ship your gun to Charlotte, NC. They stole a cased William Ford sidelock from me by holding the gun up in customs while adding on a daily storage charge until the storage charges were more than the value of the gun.

Best Regards, George

Best Regards, George

ONly way to ship to the States these days is by air freight . That will cost around �200 plus per gun.