doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Is this gun original? Charles Lancaster

Group,

I've been looking at a pair of guns for awhile and have been having a polite conversation with the owner of this pair of guns:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=265581118

Lets avoid discussion of value and price for this exercise.

The things I saw that didn't match my reference materials, personal collection and known examples was as follows:

1. I'd never seen original Lancasters that had their signature 15 Line Per Inch flat top checkering cut with diamond bevels before. Anyone able to show support for this being original?

2. The short trigger bow tang seems inconsistent with an English stock, making me believe the tang was for a Prince of Wales grip that was subsequently notched and made into a straight grip.

3. All of the original lancasters I've seen had nearly exhibition grade walnut, does the wood look original?

4. Originality of the case. Has anyone seen an original lancaster case that was NOT green baize before?

5. Originality of the case. Has anyone seen a Lancaster that had a tiny maker's label? (see the glue damage to the case lid where the label originally was). Every cased Lancaster I've seen or owned had a huge wallpaper maker's label and then they had 3 additional small "care and use" labels for different aspects of the gun.

6. Sir Joseph Whitworth's Steel. Lancaster was the barrel maker to Manton and then Purdey the younger where he was going head-to-head against his competitor, Sir Joe. The gentleman offering these guns for sale claims he has literature indicating that Lancaster offered Whitworth barrels as an option. I've never seen such a set configured as-new and was wondering if anyone else has seen original Whitworths on a Lancaster?

7. Lancaster's patented Single Trigger of 1896 was usually configured with a prince of Wales grip. Does anyone have an example of a single triggered, original Lancaster that was configured with an English straight grip stock?

I'm a Lancaster fan and I just wanted to add to my knowledge of the maker. If anyone can providce additional data points regarding the guns above I'd be interested to know more.

Regards,

Rookhawk

1. I've seen Model A's with original pointed diamonds before, usually on guns made in the early 1900's.

2.1 I've never seen a Model A shotgun (rifles are a different story) with a POW stock, got a picture?
2.2 The wood seems appropriate, and no, not all Model A's had "exhibition" quality wood.
2.3 The trigger guard tangs do seem rather short, thats not to say they weren't ordered that way. Most all succesful English gun makers were like Burger King...you could have it your way.

3. When the Model A was being made at 151 New Bond St. The original Mr. Lancaster was dead, H.A.A. Thorn was using his name and they were no longer in the barrel making business. Even though the barrels on Thorns guns still carried the prestigous "CL" mark, the barrels were most certainly outsourced. Thomas Kilby would be more likely to have been a direct competitor with the original barrel maker Charles Lancaster. Sir Whitworth was much later (patented his process in 1874) and was never in "competition" with the original Charles Lancaster (barrel maker). When this pair was said to be made, in the early 20th century, Sir Whitworths FS most certainly would've been an option.

4. Don't know about the different colors of Baize used in Lancaster cases. I've seen green, blue and red. Very insignificant IMO.

5. What Lancasters have you owned or do you currently own? Can you post pics of them please?

Dustin

The much feared "wrist breaker" action isn't it?
I love Lancasters, up there with my top 3.

T

Just my gut, it's a "period" restock. The case looks familiar. Nonetheless, a handsome pair.

My $0.02

About 30 grande over priced...

One of my hunters had a Similar Lancaster this year, I have a pic somewhere if I can find it I'll post it.It was a nice gun, but I thought quite heavy...

All those period Lancasters were 'wrist breakers' area gun shoppe has had one, beautiful wood, metal, fit up- and maybe Rambo or "Da Ahrnoold" could easily open one, not me, and I ain't no 97 lb. weakling neither- but just as my favorite actor with his 20 LC Smiths (Bogie) would have said, after viewing the case with the three initials stamped thereon-- "A WOW finish"--Here's lookin' at you, kids!!! Waaay outta my price range, but the dealer is batting 1000% on the GunBusters Feedback tally sheet- for what that may be worth--

Not all "period" SLE Lancasters were wristbreakers. Even though externally all of the SLE's might have looked similar, some were not built as self openers, and some weren't equipped with ejectors.
The Wristbreaker was never hard to OPEN! Its not even that hard to close if you have the proper technique down.

Most 12 bore Wristbreaker aka Model A's wil be in the 6.5 to 6.12 range, never ever seen one that weighed in at 7 pounds. So "heavy", no not exactly.

And even though it creeps me out to no end when I agree with jOEy, he's right on the money regarding this pairs outrageous price tag.

Dustin

I have a "wristbreaker" and it is easy to open in spite of a dozen things happening at once:

Single trigger, auto-reset safety, assisted opening, ejector gun.

I hadn't even considered the idea that the gun was called wrist breaker because it hurt the owners wrist. I thought they were called that because there is hardly any wood in the gun after in letting and they are often proofed for 1-1/8 or 1-1/4 ounce. If any model of gun deserves a broken wrist from recoil, it is this patent.

I'll post some pics eventually.

The "Wristbreaker" could've been made in two different action types, sidelock or body action.

One thing for sure....the Wristbreaker is not a "assisted opener", it, along with the Beesley actioned Purdey are most definately self openers.

Rookhawk,
There is alot of wood at the head and plenty of bearing surface for the stock. The gun is robust the whole way around. There isn't much inletting that has to be done #1, there arent that many parts on the locks to let in #2, so right there you gain strength. I'm not quite sure where you got that bit from. Never seen a cracked Lancaster stock in the wrist area or around the locks. Plenty of strength there.

Strength.



Engineering brilliance. Simple, strong, well done.


The whole design, from the stock, action, and the system is fairly robust, the weak link if there is one probably lies in the Perkes ejector system. I'm not at all familiar with the single trigger, so I cannot comment on that.

Dustin