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#264363 02/06/12 04:15 PM
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nhunter Offline OP
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I have a general question on sleeved barrels. If the sleeving was done properly in England, the gun so marked and proofed, is there any disavantage to the sleeved barrels other than not being original? Does sleeving, properly done, greatly effect the price of a double gun? Thanks, Steve

nhunter #264364 02/06/12 04:18 PM
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Yes, it does. Unfortunately, it reduces the price of a gun greatly. If the point of attachment is "invisible" it helps, but my experience has been that fellows just turn away from them.

Sam Ogle, Lincoln,NE


Sam Ogle
nhunter #264367 02/06/12 04:39 PM
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It often affects the balance of the gun especially if you are replacing damascus barrels. But, it's better then losing the gun, if it's a nice one. smile

T

nhunter #264370 02/06/12 04:51 PM
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Sleeving will likely change the balance most if the original barrels have been honed down to the point that there is insufficient thickness to use the gun any longer. Its also likely that the sleeved gun will approximate the original balance if the sleeved barrels are the same length as the originals...Geo

nhunter #264377 02/06/12 05:06 PM
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nhunter:
Please take all of this with a healthy dose of salt. Unless one has access to the original order specifications, it is impossible to know the weight or "balance" of a gun as-built. If it needs sleeving today, and you get a good craftsman to do the job, the gun can still be balanced nicely - even to suit you. What's more, you'll have a gun that's supremely safe, looks good, and will serve for another century. All at a price far less than foolish purists prefer to pay for originality.
Then again, it's their money. And the economy needs a boost.

nhunter #264378 02/06/12 05:21 PM
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yes sleeving affects value, but if done well they can be better and stonger than the original barrels, and have the benefit of nitro proof e.g. damascus to steel barrels. Whilst damascus are more desirable, as a shooter modern sleeved barrels are structuraly better. The system can be likened to Beretta / Browning / Miroku monobloc barrels.

nhunter #264380 02/06/12 05:33 PM
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Hypotheticaly .Gun in original condition $3000. Same gun with sleeved barrels $ 2250 . Same gun with scrap unuseable barrels
$ 200. So how much has sleeving affected the guns value?

nhunter #264382 02/06/12 05:43 PM
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Actualy you can not compare a sleeved gun to a gun built on a monoblock . There are many factors that have to be taken into consideration , type of lump join ,stength of braze age etc.Point is that sleeving can prolong the life of a gun for a quarter of the cost of new barrels . 40 years ago it was held that a sleeved barrel would have a life expectancy of around 20/25 years . I see guns that were sleeved in the early 60's that are still in reglar use .

gunman #264384 02/06/12 05:48 PM
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Please give us an example of someone 40 years ago who said a sleeved gun would self destruct in 25 years.

nhunter #264395 02/06/12 06:52 PM
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I don't mind owning/shooting sleeved guns. It is a complicated area. Take a Grant SLE with .021 thin barrels and pits, you'd have to discount the gun, because most folks don't buy <.020.

So here is a valuable gun, with some life left in it, if you don't mind the pits. Folks who can afford Grants, don't want them "near death". Does sleeving make it more valuable, no, more useable/saleable (than a thin barreled gun), yes.

It costs $2500-3000 to get a gun sleeved if you start in the US and send the gun get sleeved/proofed in the UK. I always look at a sleeved gun and deduct how much it would have cost me to have the gun sleeved.

I have seen many guns where, I felt they were paying me to take the gun. Take any 12 BLNE that has been sleeved, in today's market you'd never recoupe the cost of sleeving. I consider those guns (especially the BLEs) a tremendous value.

The other option is rebarreling. 5000 gbp min. If you want the original makers name engraved on the new barrels you have to go to the maker or a gunsmith who is licensed to use the name. That knocks out any but the Best Guns (another massive debate that I won't touch on in this thread).

Joe

nhunter #264415 02/06/12 09:06 PM
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You've gotten a lot of good info and some valid opinions...

Originally Posted By: nhunter
If the sleeving was done properly in England, the gun so marked and proofed, is there any disavantage to the sleeved barrels other than not being original?


I've seen some ugly "sleevers" wearing English re-proofs. All the marks mean is the barrels didn't blow up on a particular day- they offer no guarantee of balance or regulation.

All guns (including sleevers) need to be judged on their particular merits. If a sleeved or gun, or one in need of sleeving, suits your plans, aesthetic, and wallet, go for it.

For my money, the poorest value will always be the gun with "borderline" barrels.

YMMV

nhunter #264460 02/07/12 08:16 AM
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Quite simply it is a cost option.

You have a gun with useless barrels so you cant sell it or use it. Your options in order of expense:

You can re-barrel it in England.

You can re-barrel it in Spain or Italy.

You can sleeve it to the best possible standards and have a proper barrel maker strike it up like a pair of new barrels and TIG weld the join to make it invisible.

You can sleeve it to average standard.

You can sleeve it cheaply.

Whatever choice you make will affect the outcome and the subsequent value of the gun.

nhunter #264470 02/07/12 09:09 AM
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The more expensive the gun to start with, the more value is affected by sleeving.

Sleeving is a practical, economical solution for getting more use out of older guns.

The better the sleeving work is, the better the bargain for the next owner.

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Originally Posted By: eightbore
Please give us an example of someone 40 years ago who said a sleeved gun would self destruct in 25 years.

It was a generaly held opinion of the trade .No one said that they would self destruct. It was simply that was how long people thought they would last . Some have'nt lasted that long others have lasted far longer . Some were done much better than others ,I have seen some realy bad jobs and some excelent ones . Like every thing else you got what you paid for ,some folk did'nt want to pay a lot.

nhunter #264540 02/07/12 03:33 PM
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The very reason sleeving came into existance at all was because people didn't want to pay a lot.
I was fortunate to know Mr. Christian Ashthorpe who is believed to be the inventor of sleeving, who sleeved a Mr. Herbert Sandals Purdey in 1948/49 for £15 which was about two weeks wages then.
Interestingly enough Purdey moved hell and high water to stop barrels from being sleeved, but eventually they got Christian to sleeve guns for them.

nhunter #264553 02/07/12 04:16 PM
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I am really impressed that the whole sleeving debate has moved on far enough that nearly every answer to this thread has been fair and reasonable.
A few years back you would have got little but abuse and invective!
In a way this is a good illustration of how the devaluing of sleeved guns has reduced to the point that a well sleeved gun is usually worth a lot more than one with sick tubes.
The exceptions are with 20g and 28g guns which are often used with their original barrels long after they should have been retired.
A high proportion of the guns I sell have been sleeved, usually TIG welded rather than soft-soldered, and I believe that, although each one is an individual, they all represent good value and are excellent shooters.
Of course I could sell them for more with good, original barrels but then I would have to pay a shed load more for them in the first place so I can offer them for what I consider sensible money.

nhunter #264554 02/07/12 04:22 PM
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Aren't "monobloc" barrels in essence sleeved?

Gnomon #264559 02/07/12 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gnomon
Aren't "monobloc" barrels in essence sleeved?


I don't think so, Gnoman; not exactly anyway. While the process is the same, the term "monobloc" would mean a single forging comprising the chamber areas for both barrels (as well as the lumps) into which the two barrels are attached, while most sleeved barrels would involve chopper lump or other froms of original barrel maunfacture which are cut off just past the chambers and the replacement barrels attached...Geo

nhunter #264596 02/07/12 07:01 PM
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Thanks, George - but the point I thought was key is that the "new" barrels of a sleeve job are mechanically equivalent to those on a monobloc.

I might be wrong on this but if sleeved barrels fail in 25 years, is it the original chopper lump art that fails or the join?

If it's in the join then why won't monobloc construction fail the same way?

Gnomon #264600 02/07/12 07:16 PM
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I think it's all BS. Use good glue and it will last forever. Only factory monobloc guns have been shown to be faulty, and they are glued with strange "stuff". Professionally sleeved guns have not been shown to fail, in my experience.

nhunter #264645 02/08/12 06:24 AM
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It's a sign that we are in the 21st Century, computers, plastics, organics.
Now we are 'Gluing' barrels together.
God they will be loading nitro. next.

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There is an informative article on sleeving by SDH in the March/April issue of Shooting Sportsman. He provides an interesting overview of how Hugh Lomas sleeves barrels.


Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
Gnomon #264886 02/09/12 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gnomon
Aren't "monobloc" barrels in essence sleeved?


Yes.

Chuck H #264899 02/09/12 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Originally Posted By: Gnomon
Aren't "monobloc" barrels in essence sleeved?


Yes.


Quite True, but the reverse is not. That is sleeved bbls were not "Mono-Blocked" unless the old bbls were in fact removed from a mono-block, most aren't.
Cutting off a set of chopper or dovetail lump bbls does not produce a mono-block, though the method of installing the bbls are essentially the same in both cases.


Miller/TN
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nhunter #264903 02/09/12 07:01 PM
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Thank you - very helpful.

When sleeved barrels fail, do they fail at the join?

Naively, it would seem that the join on a monobloc should be about the same as a join on a set of chopper lump barrels?

Interesting post

nhunter #264908 02/09/12 07:24 PM
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Gnoman:
I have yet to hear of ANY set of properly sleeved barrels failing at the "join" or anywhere else. This from simple use... NOT bore obstructions, hacksaws, etc.

All this is akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

nhunter #264910 02/09/12 07:34 PM
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thanks - I sort of had the same impression...

nhunter #264928 02/09/12 11:53 PM
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I recall a Beretta or Browning O/U that one or both of the tubes was working out of the monoblock.

nhunter #264932 02/10/12 12:32 AM
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Some people shouldn't be allowed to play with tools....what a shame.....jeesus what a cock-up

Franc

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Joe in Charlotte

I'm with you. I will admit to being new to double guns but this ain't rocket science.I'd rather have a double gun that will give me service.I purchased a Purdey recently for less than what it cost to sleeve because everyone turned up ther nose to it because it was sleeved I'm happy as hell. I have not tried to see what Purdey would charge for a new barrel but I would assume 5000 sterling wouldn't cover the rib.
Monty


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Monty:
You, Sir, are the wisest of all! You have a Purdey. And the fools who disdain sleeved guns don't. Shoot it with pride.

Chuck: With all respect, please note that I specified "properly sleeved" and normal use. That ought to cover your hearsay exception.

nhunter #265010 02/10/12 01:28 PM
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There is a great article on Hugh Lomas Gunsmithing which includes sleeving in the new Shooting Sportsman magazine.

nhunter #265016 02/10/12 02:11 PM
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I have seen a couple of sleeved guns that have failed ,in so much that the tubes have started to come out of the backends. This was due in both cases to the simple fact that they were to loosely fitted and thus relying purley on the solder to hold them together. The tubes should be a tight fit .I'm sure some one who actually does the sleeving like John Foster could confirm this .
In fact I have seen more barrels fail or showing signs of failing as the result of having multi choke fitted , which in my opinion , does lower the value of a gun .

nhunter #265065 02/10/12 08:17 PM
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gunman

I curious what you did about it or how did you fix it.
Monty


monty
nhunter #265091 02/11/12 07:25 AM
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Gunman, I think we jumped from one subject to another. Failures "as the result of having multi choke fitted" . . . are you talking about threading the muzzles for choke tubes resulting in failures?

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I have an H Pieper hammer double with twist bbls in a 1-piece steel block (Mono-Block). The tubes on this bbl set are threaded & soldered into the block. I would not expect any failure here. The tubes actually extend only about half way through the block, thus the rear portion of the chamber is cut into the block with the forward portion being in the tube.


Miller/TN
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nhunter #265097 02/11/12 08:34 AM
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Kensal,
Yes, you did say "properly" and you also said you "...had not seen..". I believe that all properly sleeved guns will hold up well.
But that's hearsay as well.
wink grin

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in response to the original general question re any disadvantage
with a sleeved gun,i will add my opinion.i would not buy a sleeved gun (regardless of price reduction or otherwise)simply because i do not wish to own a sleeved gun.my opinion is not based on any mechanical,safety,engineering or cost reason ,it is personal choice.
therefore,a disadvantage may be found on resale if anyone else shares my view,
cheers
mrwmartin


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Colleagues,

You might enjoy reading what Gough Thomas has to say on this subject—See Gough Thomas’s Gun Book (P.106-112; Gunner Press, 1994). It concludes with, “I myself would use them [guns with properly sleeved barrels] with confidence.”

Berrien

nhunter #265510 02/13/12 02:20 PM
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In answer to points put . One gun was scrapped the other had new tubes fitted , The finished job was not 100% but it did not look to bad.
I made the point about multi chokes , referring mainly to guns that have had them installed after manufacture .As a counterpoint to the accusation that sleeving lowers the value of a gun ,It is my opinion that fitting multi choke alao lowers the value of a gun and that I have seen a number of barrels that have failed/bulged as result. You sleeve a gun when the barrel has either been damaged or it has passed a point of safety. With multi chokes you take a good barrel and effectively destroy its originality.
It is indeed a topic for another thread

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I have to say, this has been one of the better discussions. I'll toss in my 2 cents.

As I see it, the issue with sleeving that affects value is that post-sleeving the barrels are no longer original. Collectors and people who look at their guns not just as shooting tools but as storehouses of value will devalue the sleeved gun because of the lack of originality. On the other hand, the owners of guns who look at their guns as a tool or instrument, will tend to look upon the sleeved gun as neither better nor worse - as a shooting instrument - than the original gun. I can't think of any situation where an original gun in serviceable condition will be sleeved - the barrels are in acceptable condition. It's when the barrels have progressed through use or, more likely, abuse and/or neglect to the point of unserviceability that sleeving becomes an option to turn a useless piece of metal and wood into a shooting instrument once more. So, the $200 scrap/parts gun becomes a useful gun again.

It's the interplay of money - actualized and potential - and usefulness that's at issue here.

I would not hesitate to shoot or own a properly sleeved gun, if it presented itself. And I'd buy one, if the price were right and I wanted it.

Last edited by Dave in Maine; 02/14/12 09:02 PM. Reason: typo

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nhunter #265591 02/13/12 11:41 PM
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The first Parker I ever bought with my own money was sleeved (probably why it was affordable) and it is still one of my favorites. In the proper context, there is nothing wrong with sleeved guns.

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Also consider the options for sleeving - you can make a tired 26" barreled gun into a 32" barreled gun at little cost. Thereby you have a piece that you would not be able to buy because you can't find one. So, rather than look endlessly for hen's teeth, you go and buy a gun cheaply and make it what you want in an affordable way.

For example, you want a 32" barreled 20-bore hammer gun. You will NEVER find one. But you can take a tired 26" one and sleeve it. Then when you sell it it represents something that is very hard to find. Anyone who wants one will have little else to choose from. Therefore, if done well and ticking the boxes, it will sell nicely.

The long term serviceability and safety in sleeved guns is a debate past its sell-by date. It is a NON ISSUE. Quality sleeving these days is akin to new barrels if done using modern best practice.

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I don't understand the American inclination for originality when they seem to apply the opposite to those they spend their lives with!

I won't impute motives. Just a Valentine Day's thought.

nhunter #265673 02/14/12 11:01 AM
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King, I always read posts where I see your name. Thanks, that was good.

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+1 King.

If you think we Americans are bad that way ... don't go to Brazil.


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Good barrel sleeving by competent hands is just that and I have not hesitated to consider having it done when appropriate. When appropriate is when the current barrels are not serviceable and the gun is of the quality to make it worth saving.

I have a fine hammer gun whose sleeving looks good and the balance is excellent. I have little doubt the barrels lost were beyond further use.

I currently have a gun with Kirk Merrington which I have no doubt will be worth the bother.

I do caution anyone wanting to lengthen a gun through sleeving the price of ribs added to that of sleeving makes it a very expensive project. To pursue it requires a truly exceptional gun in need of barrels to consider it. That said you will never make money on the project regardless of gauge.

I accept those who do not desire a sleeved gun as opposed to original barrels as a matter of taste. There are both good and bad examples of sleeving out there.

For me I prefer not to sleeve, but there are times when no options exist except parting out, which I see as a worse act when the gun is quality


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Quote:
I can't think of any situation where an original gun in serviceable condition will be sleeved - the barrels are in acceptable condition.

Although I am unable to give any statistical numbers here I can very well recall when Sleeving was highly promoted as a method of putting "Damaccus" bbl'd guns into service. I highly suspect a good number of these were sleeved which in fact had good servicable bbls. This was a Pity. I don't think this is being done much anymore,thankfully.

I find no fault to sleeving a set of unusable bbls if the gun otherwise warants it. The cost simply has to be compared with what can be found in a similar price bracket for a gun with original bbls. I would not for instnce give the same amount of dollars to sleeve a gun as what I could buy the same model gun with good original bbls. This would let out sleeving most of the guns I own. I have for instance an H grade Lefever with unusable bbls & a cracked stock. For I also mhave some more H grades for which the combined total I gave for them would not put this gun back in service. It would simply not be cost effective, so I keep it for a parts gun.


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I have had a sleeved hammer gun with ok but not great sleeved barrels, that were a little heavy. I now own a sleeved Best with very good sleeving, that is almost impossible to see, great balance and with original barrels would have been out of my price range. I expect to use this gun for 10 years and don't expect to lose money.


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I'm reviving this classic thread for another question.

Originally Posted By: Joe in Charlotte

I have seen many guns where, I felt they were paying me to take the gun. Take any 12 BLNE that has been sleeved, in today's market you'd never recoupe the cost of sleeving. I consider those guns (especially the BLEs) a tremendous value.


With the growth of non-toxic shot requirements for bird hunting in the US, I've gotten tired of using my modern guns for steel. I'd much rather be using a British game gun. I shoot enough at birds that Nice Shot isn't practical.

I've thought about buying a recently-sleeved and (maybe) refinished gun in England, adjusting the chokes to the proper constriction, and having it reproofed for steel. Would you guys expect that a top notch modern sleeving job would pass a steel proof?

nhunter #372604 07/13/14 07:39 PM
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HI

A gun with sleeved barrels is like a beautiful woman in a silk dress perfect make up nice hair, but wearing a pair of steel toe cap work boots. Something is just not quite right but beautiful all the same.
If you don’t mind that the gun is sleeved and the price is right that’s marriage made in heaven.


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I do not mind a great gun with sleeved barrels at all. For shooter's they are a best deal if done properly. I was able to add a 1894 S. Grant & Sons side lock, ejector, side lever to my collection that was sleeved and reproofed in England. If it had the original Damascus barrels it would have been beyond my price range. Sleeved, it made it affordable and has proved to be a very good shooter. I am able to use and enjoy a quality classic English gun with new barrels and with proper care it is something I am able to pass down for another generation to use and enjoy. For a shooter, a quality gun with sleeved barrels is a very good deal.

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I believe sleeved guns are just great, basically new bbls, fit for a lifetime or more.
It also lets you into a much nicer Gun, for the cash you have, assuming its a real good job, & that your ok with that.
My WW Greener 1901 Hammer has sleeved bbls, but no one ever new, unless i pointed out the incredibly hard to see joints, all properly marked n proofed..( or is it proved?)
I see them as a way to get a real bargain, sometimes.
For the collector, no, but a guy looking for a real nice shooting gun, yes.
The balance thing is daft,...as said before,how does anyone know how a gun balanced before the bbls were lopped off...you cant....pick it up n see how it feels for you...then make your decision.
Westley Richards did some really ugly sleeving.....which I find hard to believe, considering their reputation in the Makers world?
best to you all
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Frank, The Grant that I was able to afford was sleeved by Westley Richards. The line of the joint can be seen but it nice and clean and does not bother me at all. High quality action, beautiful engraving, knock out wood and new re-blacked barrels. 2.5 inch chambers, reproofed at Birmingham. Great shooter, nice weight and balance. Makes it a very nice gun for a "Joe Lunchbox" budget. I'm content.

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Westley Richards were one of the first to carry out this type of work and some of the early attempts were not done to the standard that they later achieved. Some of the work done now is almost undetectable. Lagopus.....

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I believe sleeved guns are just great, basically new bbls, fit for a lifetime or more.
It also lets you into a much nicer Gun, for the cash you have, assuming its a real good job, & that your ok with that.
My WW Greener 1901 Hammer has sleeved bbls, but no one ever new, unless i pointed out the incredibly hard to see joints, all properly marked n proofed..( or is it proved?)
I see them as a way to get a real bargain, sometimes.
For the collector, no, but a guy looking for a real nice shooting gun, yes.
The balance thing is daft,...as said before,how does anyone know how a gun balanced before the bbls were lopped off...you cant....pick it up n see how it feels for you...then make your decision.
Westley Richards did some really ugly sleeving.....which I find hard to believe, considering their reputation as fine gun makers
best to you all
franc

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Amazing TIG 'Invisible Sleeving'



Interesting. c. 1867 MacNaughton of Edinburgh 12b sleeved from damascus to steel...back to damascus; with silver between all 4 joints. By John Foster and Graham Bull, England. Courtesy of David Trevallion.





Interesting by incongruous. Damascus to Damascus by Keith Kearcher



Hideous butchery. Ed's master gunsmith



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The last one-The Parker butchered by ed, looks like a plumber did it not a gunsmith !


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Back in the 60's Westley Richards sleeved a lot of guns that were by todays standards awful . Thing to remember here is that sleeving was considered a repair ,that's all, to make gun last another 10 years as a cheap alternate to rebarreling so no real attempt was made to make it seem other wise . As time went on prices rose as did the quality of machining ,no more holding the back end in a wooden clamp and reaming out with a reground chamber cutter and facing off with a piloted cutter . Customers demanded better and they got it so that modern sleeving is largely undetectable on sight .
As to the question of steel shot ,problem is that the proof charge is the same as a magnum and it is a matter of whether the action will stand that pressure .

nhunter #372685 07/14/14 04:31 PM
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drew: sorry, don't recognize that one...

old ed did sleeve guns. doubt if he could do it anymore, being 88 an all...anyway, other guns that he has sleeved do show the seams. he could hide the seams if desired, but then that would cost more. gotta keep cost down when sleeving field guns, don cha no?

remember a parker ph he sleeved at my request years ago. Damascus barrels had been honed by some crook, so the barrel walls were bright and shiny like glass, but they were paper thin; less than what he considers as safe...anyway, he sleeved barrels, with seams showing. gun also shot both barrels to point of aim at 30 yards...fellow I sold the gun too won his state skeet shooting championship with that old sleeved parker, with the seams showing...

old ed also has the tooling and skills required to regulate barrels sleeved by others, that do not shoot to point of aim at any distance...don't know of anyone else in this country that can do that kind of work. do you?

Last edited by ed good; 07/14/14 04:35 PM.

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nhunter #372687 07/14/14 04:43 PM
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http://www.hellis.com/history.html

There's some interesting information here from paragraph 21 onwards
It's all worth a look really. Reading this thread reminded me of this particular site.

P.S. I'm a fan of properly done sleeving.


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Ed
you must probably be right there..I'm sure old Ed is the finest Gunsmith to stand at a workbench since Joe Manton..:)
I doubt that Parker Bros would recognise that one either
franc

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franc: old ed does good work at a fair price...have known others like him. they are all gone now...it will be a sad day when the rest of his kind passes...as you claim to be from nh, it surprises me that you apparently have no knowledge of him or his work.


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nhunter #372725 07/14/14 10:27 PM
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"Balance" of the gun is never "ruined" by sleeving. Changed, Yes. Ruined, no. Sleeving is likely to give the gun thicker barrel walls than when new, but not necessarily. If you pay to have the sleeves bored and struck to "OE" thickness, then the gun will handle as when new.

Sleeved guns generally gain weight, have more forward balance, and higher swing efforts. For game guns in the hands of modern shooters, these four characteristics are moved in the direction of better shooting.

Keep in mind that there is no such thing as "magic balance" that makes a gun good for all shooters. Like stock dimensions, differing shooters are better serves with differing handling characteristics. Sleeving gives you a chance to make a major change in a gun's handling while restoring safe shooting.

DDA

nhunter #372732 07/15/14 07:25 AM
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rocketman: good post... same thing can be accomplished with briley insert tubes. I like 26" 20 ga tubes in 30" 12 gauge guns. adding weight to the barrels changes the balance of the gun and seems to improve swing for me. in a 12 gauge gun, I shoot 7/8 loads most of the time. same as the standard 20 gauge load. guns so equipped pattern wonderfully. ever heard of the routledge bored .22? same idea cept in a 12 gauge shotgun.


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Originally Posted By: Franc Otte
Ed
you must probably be right there..I'm sure old Ed is the finest Gunsmith to stand at a workbench since Joe Manton..:)
I doubt that Parker Bros would recognise that one either
franc


Don't let antigun ed good push you around Franc,I have seen more then one hack sleeve job by the "plumber" Landers-and offered by Ed and the king of torched guns-Ed good, must be blind if he thinks that acceptable,of course Ed is only in it for himself.Greed covers lots of faults when he thinks he can fill his pockets.Like Landers its time for antigun Ed Good to hang it up and put his kitchen table "business" to bed.


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nhunter #372743 07/15/14 10:56 AM
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enough of this thread trashing and vindictive personal attacks! posts like dave k's above should not be permitted on this main forum or elsewhere on this fine web site.

as for the quality of firearms I sell, if anyone here really cares, please go to gunsamerica.com for a review of the items currently listed by seller ed good. you be the judge and not this mean spirited malcontent.

Last edited by ed good; 07/15/14 04:38 PM.

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nhunter #372766 07/15/14 08:37 PM
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ed good, there are quite a few people that can regulate sxs in this country.and do a quality job of sleeving i don't think it would have taken much to fit the rib properly on that Parker.it lives on as a poor job done quickly for a price.

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You sell trashed torched POS guns to unsuspecting buyers Ed.

Look at this Parker, Torched POS Ed is selling (by Landers)-note how Ed leaves the action open just a bit to make the lever look to the right.



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nhunter #372788 07/16/14 07:03 AM
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nonsense


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nhunter #372823 07/16/14 11:17 AM
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If anyone can come up with a personal "good job " story from this mythical Master Gunsmith,Ed Landers dude please post it.
I nearly feel bad for the guy,as he lets Ed do the talking.
Ed you asked why I had not heard of him?
Of course I have...I have only heard the reams & reams of stuff here, it has all been, well , lets say not so Good..Thats what I have heard of your mate Mr Landers..Mr Ed

Ed, I don't know what he charged for that hideous Parker sleeving job, but if you offered more cash, could he do a better job?
I find it hard to believe that a top notch Gunsmith such as Old Ed,who,as you say,might possibly the only one in this entire country , who, according to you, is able to regulate badly sleeved bbls done by other guys would let out such crappy looking work with his esteemed name on it.
You sir , are full of Shit if you think that sleeving job on that Parker is anywhere near Good Work, no matter how cheap
Franc

Last edited by Franc Otte; 07/16/14 11:22 AM.
nhunter #372826 07/16/14 12:38 PM
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franc: you claim to be from nh, but you have only heard of ed lander through this forum? you must not know many other gun guys around here? most everybody I know here who has in interest in guns knows of or knows ed lander... old ed has been a practicing general gunsmith in new england since 1946, when he opened his first shop in lakeville, ma. he moved his shop back to his place of origin in nh, in the early seventies and has been doing good work there ever since...

as to a hideous sleeving job, I don't know what you are talking about. and wether you like something or not, does not give you license to spew forth insults and name calling that are not appropriate. you should be ashamed of yourself for soiling this fine forum with your uncordial post above.

Last edited by ed good; 07/16/14 01:01 PM.

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Bullshit mate..that sleeving job is as I said ,bloody horrible & looks like it was done by a chimp.I haven't really called Ed any bad names...just said what I thought of his work, which in that picture looks pretty damn shoddy.
As of yet, I haven't been given a Time Out for soiling this fine forum for uncordial posts as I believe you have...you are the king of spew mate.
How the bloody hell do you know how many Gunsmiths I know?...but I usually am interested in guys who do first rate work....Abe Chaber has done some great stuff for me, & I have been up to Crossed Chisels den a couple of times ...do they count?
whatever......

nhunter #372847 07/16/14 03:38 PM
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franc: again, not sure what sleeve job you are referring too...

and I never suggested the number of gunsmiths you know...however, it does seem odd that if you are in fact from nh or eastern mass, that you would not have heard of old ed...

but then, I don't know of an abe chaber nor crossed chisels in nh either.

what is their claim to fame and where are they in nh?

Last edited by ed good; 07/16/14 03:41 PM.

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nhunter #372850 07/16/14 03:44 PM
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franc: I googled abe chaber. he is a gunsmith in Danbury, conn.

I googled cross chisels. found a listing for Madison, ga.

are you sure you are from nh and not just funning us like dave k?


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nhunter #372857 07/16/14 04:01 PM
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I would guess that a lot of people would like a set of original barrels ,yes firing a gun with pitted over size barrels is nice , but if it's sleeved and it's done right it will shoot just as well ,and giving an old girl a new lease of life ....ie new chokes ,the point is it's a tool
If you can't shoot it it's a scrap .....does not matter what posh name it's got on it ,it's just scrap

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markus: what you say is so true.

problem is sleeving jobs usually cost one to two thousand dollars, depending on what level of finish work you are willing to pay for. so, from a cost vs. return stand point, sleeving is
hard to justify for field grade guns.

for 12 ga guns, there is a $600 alternative. briley makes 26" light weigh 20 gauge insert tube sets. after custom fitting, one could then shoot 20 ga field loads in there old 12 bore. whats more, these tube sets have interchangeable choke tubes! it has been my experience that they pattern beautifully in 28" and 30" guns. I have customers who love this option.

markus: just noticed that you are in the uk. what do sleeve jobs cost over there?

Last edited by ed good; 07/16/14 04:15 PM.

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Franc,
we both know what good gunsmiths do with guns and what hacks/plumbers do,one looks at some of the torched/sleeved crap Ed is defending and you know which catagory they belong in-don't let that clown bully you.

Ed Good and his gunsmith Landers should BOTH retire,don't know if its bad eyes (and stuck cap key) or just being deceptive-one look at his bogus return policy and crappy pics tell me the latter !


Look at this POS Parker, who in their right mind put a torch to gun and then attempt"s to SELL it to some unsuspecting buyer ??
Landers crappy sleeve jobs,like the torched guns bring the value of the gun down to 35% at auctions-and lots of laughter !





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nhunter #372865 07/16/14 04:48 PM
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ah don know...dat one looks pretty good to me.

an aint the plastic ivy leaf a nice touch?

following is link to gunsamerica listing if you would like to know more about this fine old gun: http://www.gunsamerica.com/935266249/PARKER_GH_2_12_GAUGE_WITH_TWO_SETS_OF_BARRELS.htm.

an dave k thanks for sortin through my listings on ga an for bringing this gun to the attention of all here...cant get enough marketing support in these days of slow summer gun sales.

Last edited by ed good; 07/16/14 07:25 PM.

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that parker isn't good looking,Roger im with you on the sleeved gun and the torch job on the parker i wonder if the heat affected the structural integrity of the parker. there are many good gunmith's that won't do this kind of work at any price.

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More proof Ed-and his gunsmith are either blind or stupid or more then likely BOTH.

I doubt you could find even ONE person on here who would call say that torched POS you are scamming on some unsuspecting buyer "pretty good"


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I think you are looking. At £1000 to £ 1500 ....still a lot of dosh , i have sleeved sidelock from the 30s it gets used on anything from clays to bunnys love it. And it looks good to the eye ,I had a look at the pic on the post of the sleeved job .......the bloke that did that needs beating with this own tools ,what a shame

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$1,000 to $2,000 for a sleeve job today??? Where you getting those prices Ed? The few that are doing good sleeving today are a bit more than that.

Once again, another thread reduced to BS by Ed. Over and over again... And meanwhile this site just continues to swirl in the toilet.


B.Dudley
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et te brian te?


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nhunter #372880 07/16/14 07:07 PM
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Interesting thread to read from the beginning (I missed this originally I think). How much do you think sleeving reduces the value of a "best" gun assuming the work has been done well? Obviously a considerable amount - but any guesses on percent? For example - would this nice little Boss 20 bore with sleeved barrels really be worth $65K - I know small gauge O/U's are rare - but I have a hard time thinking I'd spend this kind of money on a sleeved gun.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Boss-Co-20g-Over-and-Under.cfm?gun_id=100372825

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gw: I have a hard time thinking any gun is worth $65 k...or for that matter, much more than 3k...


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Originally Posted By: B. Dudley
Once again, another thread reduced to BS by Ed. Over and over again... And meanwhile this site just continues to swirl in the toilet.


With all due respect, Ed can't trash a thread, or a site, by himself. He is a master fisherman. He dangles the bait, and with all the fish in the pond, somebody bites. If you went fishing at the same place long enough, without ever even getting a bite, wouldn't you go fish someplace else? Don't reply to his enticements and he will eventually leave. But, somebody just has to step up and engage him, every time, and it just goes on and on.

Stop being suckered by him. No matter what he says, don't reply, play your game, not his.

SRH


Drinking from my saucer, 'cause my cup has overflowed .......
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gee stan, are talkin about me?

look at this thread... I did not post the picture of a not so nice looking sleeve job and claim it was done by "ed's master gunsmith". that was done by drew house. I did not post pictures of a refinished parker shotgun that I have for sale and claim it was a "pos parker". that was done by dave k.

so, who is trashing threads here? it aint me.


Last edited by ed good; 07/16/14 11:16 PM.

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For anyone who wonders the sleeve prices in Uk,i have a Leech&Sons 12 gauge sleeved by Westley Richards few years ago. The price was 2200£ and they did a fabulous work,i must say the gun shoots better than it used to.

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Originally Posted By: Stan
Originally Posted By: B. Dudley
Once again, another thread reduced to BS by Ed. Over and over again... And meanwhile this site just continues to swirl in the toilet.


With all due respect, Ed can't trash a thread, or a site, by himself. He is a master fisherman. He dangles the bait, and with all the fish in the pond, somebody bites. If you went fishing at the same place long enough, without ever even getting a bite, wouldn't you go fish someplace else? Don't reply to his enticements and he will eventually leave. But, somebody just has to step up and engage him, every time, and it just goes on and on.

Stop being suckered by him. No matter what he says, don't reply, play your game, not his.

SRH


Could not agree more,Ed is deranged and need attention-he has been tossed off every other board and has no place to go and no life. Ignoring his posts and threads is the only solution.

Done !


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nhunter #372917 07/17/14 08:41 AM
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wonder why untruths and personal attacks are tolerated on this fine forum?


One Can Neva Have Too Many Gons, Dawgs An Udder Friends...
nhunter #372922 07/17/14 08:54 AM
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Point of clarification only, since the truth matters. "Sleeved by E.A. Lander"




I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw


nhunter #372926 07/17/14 09:27 AM
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well that one certainly looks like it was done by old ed...actually looks better underneth than your picture from above. are you sure it is the same gun? please link us to your source for these pictures, so we can all see the same thing you are...


an speakin of pigs...if someone offers to sell you a pig in a sack...even though it may sound like a pig and smell like pig, open the sack and make sure it is a pig and not an armadillo!


One Can Neva Have Too Many Gons, Dawgs An Udder Friends...
nhunter #372962 07/17/14 02:56 PM
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I had Ed Lander restock a #1 frame V Parker for me many years ago. The stock is beautiful and I shoot it for dove hunting. I got a deal on the price and a quality job. Whats wrong with that?


wear those safety glasses
ed good #372964 07/17/14 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: ed good
well that one certainly looks like it was done by old ed...actually looks better underneth than your picture from above. are you sure it is the same gun? please link us to your source for these pictures, so we can all see the same thing you are...


an speakin of pigs...if someone offers to sell you a pig in a sack...even though it may sound like a pig and smell like pig, open the sack and make sure it is a pig and not an armadillo!


Proof positive means nothing to ed, Drew. Show him a link to those pictures and he'll only claim they were altered. Some gunsmiths do nothing but top notch work, and would never stamp chicken tracks to cover a sleeve joint. Some should not even ever touch a gun, period. Still others will do quick and cheap or very good quality and charge more accordingly. Apparently, ed has used Ed Lander to put lipstick on pigs for the lowest price so he can maximize his profits. Actually, it looks like maybe some of eds more recent torched beauties were done by another hand to save even more. Did you do that ed, and then attribute those bulls-eyes and burned metal to old Ed? Or did you find someone who works even cheaper? And DaveK's picture of the partly closed Parker so the lever stays right is very revealing. You can see that the dolls head is not fully seated and that the breeches are slightly open. Very crafty. Makes you want to go right to Guns International and buy one. Caveat Empetor.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

nhunter #372969 07/17/14 04:36 PM
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drew: well now, this last post got me curious, so i went on a search for parker ph 12 gauge sleeved. found the picture of the underside of the ed lander sleeve job shown above, where his name and addrsss is stamped on the barel flats, along with an indication that he proofed the barrels... curiously though, could not find the other picture reputed to be the top view of the barrels of the same gun. now i know old eds economy sleeving work will leave one with seam lines showing...but his work is not as unsightly as the top view picture posted here...so, if you would, please let us know the origin of that first picture you posted on this thread titled "Hideous butchery. Ed's master gunsmith". i am beginning think the pictures you posted here are from two different guns?

meanwhile, my search also revealed this:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/947805155/PARKER_PH_12_GAUGE_SLEEVED.htm

this is my listing on gunsamerica from 2009, for the only gun i ever had old ed sleeve. good news: this gun has won at least one state skeet shooting championships that i know of. bad news: i lost money on the deal and never have been willing to pay for another sleeving job, by anyone.

Last edited by ed good; 07/17/14 04:38 PM.

One Can Neva Have Too Many Gons, Dawgs An Udder Friends...
nhunter #372974 07/17/14 05:02 PM
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Same green background Ed, and both Parkers. Took a lot of searching for me to find the match in order to attribute someone else's butchery to you, or E.A. Lander, or somebody.
It's 109 today in Phoenix so I'll go hose off the mud in the backyard now, and that's all the fun with you that I intend to enjoy.

nhunter #372984 07/17/14 06:44 PM
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drew: well, ok, it might be the same gun, but i dont remember the work to be quite as crude as the one you first posted here and labeled it as hideous work by ed's gunsmith...in any event, guess 2 an 2 dont necessarily add up to 4 do hit sometimes?...would ask you to be a little more careful attributing shoody work to someone without absolute proof that they in fact did the work in question...

an as for the heat, i was in phoenix around the fouth of july a few years ago...i remember it was 120 degrees! this is why i stay in new england this time of year. high today was typical for this time of year. around 80 degrees! course next feb and march when it is just around zero here at noon, i will wish i was in sunny warm arizona...heard it is nice down by tucson in the winter?

Last edited by ed good; 07/17/14 06:52 PM.

One Can Neva Have Too Many Gons, Dawgs An Udder Friends...
nhunter #373034 07/18/14 08:23 AM
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I have a Boss hammer damascus with tubes that are thin near the muzzle I think .018 I think .100 4 inches out from breech I bought it anyway.Maybe I should have maybe I shouldn't either way it's history.My theory is they only made about 1000 of these and I have one.I called Boss and asked how much to re barrel it and they quickly said it wouldn't be worth it.I could have sleeved it for $3000. before it left England or re barreled it for about $5000 but I'm not sure who from. I just passed on a Boss thumb lever sleeved $5000. I should have bought it but again that's history. I think I paid $9000 for non sleeved.Would it have been worth $5000.if I would have sleeved it????


monty
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