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I'm interested in some information about a double barreled hammer shotgun named Original Diana cal. 16 / 70(65 maybe, I'm not sure). It's made in Belgium, some when in the beginning of the last century. Because I found Proof stamps on the barrels and the head of the gun that implies that this gun is authentic and from that time. The gun is in very good condition.
I'm informed that Beretta is making this Diana double barreled hammer shotgun in calibers .12 and .20 (which can be seen on h**p://www.beretta.com/index.aspx?m=74&idc=1&ids=55) and it costs around 65000 €.
I can't find any more information about the original, but it would be very interesting to see comparison of the value of the new one and the original one from the old time.

I would appreciate very much if somebody can help me find or share more information.

I expect both having the name Diana is simply a coincidence. Photos of the Original Diana hammergun you mention would be helpful, or at least a good description of the proofmarks. If it's early 20th century, the gauge will be marked 16 over a C inside a diamond.

Henri Pieper of Liege, Belgium sold guns marked as "Original Diana". All of these I am familiar with however also had the Pieper name on them as well. these were guns built under Piepers original patent for the "Mono-block" bbl construction. To my knowledge Pieper never used the term mono-block simply calling it a "One Piece" steel breech piece. I am not positive but I think perhaps that Beretta coined the term Mono-Block.
I would definately agree with Larry, the use of Diana by Beretta would have no connection with this gun.

Well, that's why I'm here to figure out what kind of barrel is it and what is the real value.
Maybe having the name Diana on both barrels is simply a coincidence, but also both of them looks pretty the same. There is many proofmarks, but I can easily send some pictures for easyer recognition, but I just don't know how to post it?
So if you can suggest something where to post the pictures, I'll gladly do it.

Some of the proofmarks are:
"ORIGINAL DIANA" sign in gold on the top of the barrel with picture goddest Diana with elbow and arrow in hands, "DEMI BLOC", "POUR POURDRES VIVES", "ACIER BAYARD", "ANC. ETABL PIEPER", "HER STAL BELGIQUE", "PV", "ELG" (in triangle order), "16.8 CHOKE 16.7" - on right barrel, "CHOKE 16.6" - on left barrel, and also some numbers: 62675, 8534, 4856.
Thanks for help.

Emilio,

Welcome to the bbs.

Miller is of course correct. The gun was made by Henri Pieper.

Here is a similar gun.



Here is the Pieper patent application:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT246195&id=QiBMAAAAEBAJ&dq=henri+pieper

An english language Pieper Catalog:


A german language Pieper Catalog:


The only reason the Beretta looks similar is method of joining the barrels. Which Pieper changed only in appearance:


So to answer your question. No you did not find the Original Beretta Diana shotgun. Beretta's current offering is merely drawing on a long history of fine European gun making.

By the way, it really is easier if you post images of guns you have questions about. Here is the FAQ:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6339&page=1#Post6339

Pete

Pete; Very interesting post. The first pic is constructed according to Pieper's patent. The one piece block is bored on a taper with the holes larger at the rear & the tube inserted from the breech end. the tubes themselves are not stepped which is why the block is larger than the bbls. I have a Pieper similar to the lower pic marked Modified Diana also but had doll's head rather than cross bolt. On these guns as best as i have been able to determine the bbl is stepped down, the shank threaded & then screwed into the front of the block. The tubes extend only about half way through the block so the chambers are partially in the block & partially in the tubes. I am still somewhat confused on the Pieper "Demi-Block". Normally we think of this as a chopper lump construction. The pic of the model 459 thouigh is marked Demi-Block but also shows the tube joining line. Is this a "Tubed Two Piece Block" rather than using the one piece mono-block???

The method of barrel jointing in Pete's photos reminds me of French "fretted" barrels, with the step, like you often see on Manufrance Robusts.

Emilio,

Welcome back. You have become an expert at posting pictures.

Nice pictures of the Pieper Diana Model 459. The date code "d" indicates it passed proof in 1925. The 1Kg467 is the weight of the barrels at the time they passed proof. So, if you weigh them you will be able to tell if they have been modified in any way.


Pete

I'm back after a year and half ;O)
Yeah, a real expert in posting pictures indeed hehe

In a meantime, I weigh them, and they are the same weight like it says there, 1Kg467.

So, does anyone know about some starting or relative value at least, or the place where I can maybe inform myself about it?

Emilio

From the Sears 1897 catalog.




Prices are all over the place. Parkers for $36.45, LC Smith $49.75, Daly for $95, Greener for $187.50, Baker, Forehand, Davis, Hollenbeck, are all in this catalog. A cheap Belgian for $8.69.

Pete

By the way, nice Pieper, Emilio. The older I get, the more I appreciate engraving I can SEE! (For me, big bold scratching is "Ideal".....the way I see it, crude is gude.).

Pete;
I appreciate that posting. I had long suspected the tubes on my Modified Diana Pieper were screwed into the block but had no reference. This shows that at least some were. I am still confused as to the Demi-Block marking on Emilio's Original Diana. All references I have seen to the Pieper guns using tubes seperate from the breech block refer to a "Single Breech Piece" or what we refer to today as a "Mono-Block". All references I hjave seen to a "Demi-Block" indicate Chopper Lump construction in which an entire bbl & half the lumps are forged from a single piece. It is hard to imagine they would have made the breech piece in two parts, joined them & then tubed it.

In 1881 Pieper won an award at the Paris Exposition for his innovative design. These next 2 images are from the Jury Report and based on drawings Pieper supplied to them.





Here is a Pieper side cocking cape gun based on the same design from the 1897 Sears catalog.


Do not let Monoblock, Monobloc, Demi-Block, Demibloc, etc confuse you. You are seeing translations from the French and later Italian.

Pieper was making the block then threading in the barrels. After that they were placed in a brazing oven. The modified Diana, 1891 had nothing to do with the barrels but rather the locking system. The stepped tubes disappeared and re-appeared over the years. Pieper pioneered use of brazing ovens for production in Belgium.

Early on, it was just as cheap in Belgium to produce a damascus tube as a fluid one, because of the cheap labor costs. So Pieper set up the design to be independent of the sourced barrels. He made all his own damascus in his "Brazil Works" shop.

Note in the previous post where I showed the modified Diana, the warning toward the end of the ad about painted barrels meant to imitate the Pieper monobloc. So even the Belgians had their problems with cheap knock offs.

Many years later, Beretta took the design to heart. Here is their drawing (1957) of it:



Pete

Pete;
The 1881 drawings are identical to those of US patent 246,195 issued Aug 23 1881 to H Pieper. The tubes under this patent were neither stepped or threaded. The holes through the block were bored on a taper, being larger at the rear. The tubes had a matching taper on the rear & were inserted in the block from the rear, thus the step, as the block was of necessity larger than the tubes. On those bbls having a smooth transition the tubes are stepped & thus inserted from the front. On my old Pieper, unlike the pictured Beretta, they only go approximately half way through the block & I suspect are threaded in. Inso far as I am able to discern the ribs, tubes, everything was assembled with the use of soft solder. There is no evidence of any brazing on the gun at all. I have not personally seen a lot of these guns, but of those I have & also pictures etc, all I have seen having the Original Diana marking seem to have had the stepped bbl construction while those marked Modified Diana have had the smooth construction. I have never known though whether the markings had anything to do with the bbl joining method or were just co-incidental.

On the rib of the original guns, there is a patent date of 1881. The breech modification has a 1891 date. With the modified Diana, the step disappears. Then a few years later, under the Bayard trade name it appears again. It kept coming and going. I think it was meant to deter fakes as time went on, but can not back that up.

My Diana is currently in for restoration. When it is done in a few months I will post some pictures of it. It is an early gun.

Pete

Here is an early 20th Century Pieper/Bayard. 16 gauge with non-stepped barrels. They come both ways. I believe this one has the half-length, threaded inserts. Pricing will depend on condition, model variation, and how much the seller & buyer know about the gun.

HTH, sv

You might be interested in the origin of the name. Diana is the Roman goddess of forests and groves. She was the daughter of Jupitor and Latona and the sister of Phoebus. Her dedication day is August 16th in case any of you want to go shooting in a forest or grove.There is generally a similiar god or goddess in Greek mythology and in this case,the Greek equialent is Artemis.There are any number of allusions to Diana with hunting and this is where the name is frequently seen,such as the Diana grade on Brownings.
While I'm aware that this has nothing to do with the thread,I thought I might as well throw in my two cents worth.
Best Regards to All
Gene

I have an old Pieber Byard Original Diana too, but I cannot find the date code. Where will it be stamped?

Swift

Hello Swift1
Welcome on your first posting

The date code will be in the proofmarks

See here

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

If you need any additional info or assistance some
pictures will certainly help us help you



You see, my belguim gun has an f date code (1927)

Mike

Thank you for info skeettx.

I could still not find something that looks like dating codes.
Took some pictures of the gun.
Could it be the �C� on the forestock lock?







Swift1

Swift 1;
Have you measured the chamber length on this gun. That 75/20.6 is chamber dimensions. Normal metric/inch conversions show a 65mm as 2 9/16"; 67mmm = 2 5/8"; 70mm = 2 3/4", 73mm = 2 7/8" & 76mm = 3". 75mm converts to 2.95" or less than a 1/16" shy of 3".
The 20.6 is the diameter of the chamber just ahead of the rim seat. This converts to .811" which is a correct dimension for a 12ga chamber.
I forget the exact dates now but this marking became mandatory on smokeless powder proofed guns at a quite early date & continued in use until 1924 as I recall. Also I do not recall at what point the date codes came into use but this gun likely predates them.

I have measured the chamber length to 75mm

Swift1