doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Zumbo's comments

Lot of water under the bridge since the Constitutional Convention. The world has moved on. If, as jm says, small arms aren't sufficient means to secure any end except getting yourself noticed by a satellite, it would seem that an anti-satellite jamming device would be an "effective" addition to the (home) arsenal of freedom. I don't think either the govmint or Comcast would be thrilled with the idea and I haven't heard the NRA espousing it. So your old blackpowder musket (or your Garand or Bushmaster) exists as a symbol of a hypothetical and "unlikely" to be manifested power of self-determination; counters in a game; artifactual detritus of a "free" people. No wonder things are so edgy in the Big Tent; lot of rhetorical minutemen who would become quite circumspect when push comes to shove comes to cattlecar. A hoe or sharp spade will do as well in hands desperate enuf to pick one up. That would be chaos enuf for me!

jack

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Ted I'll have you know I don't drink beer.
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Alas, no hope for you now! Get back jOe jOe, back to where you once belonged.

That's what a gun is to me a tool...be it war or hunting. If I need a gun for war I expect the United States to supply it.

The people that dream about dooms-day levees might be better off owning a dull spade.

Mr. Maloney:

Once again you have ignored my statement of conditions, and your argument is back to a straw man which I have not positied, while ignoring my basic argument.

This becomes a bit tedious, but perhaps I was unclear again. God knows I am not perfect. I will again try to be explicit and understandable - I hope you will bear with me like a gentleman.

The Warsaw Ghetto Jews lost because 1) they did NOT have enough people. 2) they did not have enough weapons and ammo. 3) Their uprising was not a Mass Uprising, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

The Hungarian Republicans of Imre Nagy lost because: 1) they did NOT have enough people 2) They did not have enough weapons and ammo 3) their uprising , although more mass based than the Warsaw Ghetto situation, did not have enough extensive outside support ( outside Buda and Pest ). Their uprising did not achieve the mass envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

The Mujahadeen DID win. Their ability to employ light ADA systems successfully was a big help, but the SAM's were used to attack the follow-on, or " cavalry to the rescue" Hinds. Nonetheless, a standard tactic they frequently used was the armor column ambush. This was a multi-step procedure where after they immobilized the vehicles, they destroyed the supporting infantry at dismount, using aimed rifle fire, from ambush positions. On numerous occasion, they used this method to eliminate to the last man BMP/tank- equipped company team sized elements. This was done with a couple of command detonated AT mines and then lots of Lee-Enfield rifle fire. The Mujahadeen were willing to die to complete their ops, but did not suicide and in fact functioned on the battlefield pretty much as any other citizen-soldier might - obviously unwilling to die, but accepting battlefield death as a risk to be incurred. This is no different from the behavior I would expect from any person bearing arms .

As for the contention that the SovFor were no good or were not operationally capable- this is certainly unsupportable during the first several years of the war, and even at withdrawal Soviet Forces were militarily functional. The fact they lost the political will to fight contributes to the success of the Mujahadeen.

As an aside, I wrote a professional paper on this specific subject several years ago. If I can find it, Ill send you a copy. Perhaps you would find it of interest. Or... mebbe not.

In a direct analog with the highly theoretical situation we are discussing here, the loss of "political will" by the regular forces is ( Surprise) a potential outcome of a conflict between " Second Amendment Constitutionalists" ( The Founders Last Resort) and a professional " anti-constitutionalist army of oppression".

At any rate, I hope I have myself clear this time.

An additional thought- several people have suggested that the Second Amendment "Then" was ok, but now it may be obsolete, because the arms were slow and and less capable then now. Thats a specious argument. Unless of course you will suggest that the Free Press of the First Amendment only applies to a manually operated manually typset press of the Guntenberg style, and not to high-speed offset lithography and Internet cmmunication.

Last thought- those who have bought into the "good - gun/Bad-gun" theology have surrendered their rights already, by agreeing that rights are conditional on perceptions or " majority opinions". That is " my pretty beautiful damascus barreled double gun is a good gun because its not a war weapon and its a thing of beauty", but your AR or Browning Auto-5 is evil because its a semi-auto, or shoots more than two shots without reload.

There are two fallacies there- Double guns have been used as weapons, so that isnt a "get out of jail free card" for our beloved doubles. Secondly- beauty is in the eye of the beholder - Rebecca Peters thinks your Purdey is ugly too, and wants to take it away from you as well. At least that is what she has stated publicly.

Ultimately in a world where there are sheep, and sheepdogs and wolves, some people are absolutely committed to being sheep. It is easier for them, and makes much less personal demand for fulfillment of their civic obligations. It seems incredible to me, though, that these sheep are so insistent that the rest of us must be sheep too. I guess we make them uncomfortable. Of course, it is likely that a eunuch feels uncomfortable in a locker room, too.

Regards to all

Gregory K. Taggart

Of all the countries on planet earth, America is uniquely fearful and uniquely secure and the dichotomy contributes not to extremism or cults in a most civil society but to increasingly polarized communities of aggression and fear. What could be more serving of democracy, however, than a country offering a black and a woman as president?

Friend Kingsley:

I think you overstate your case. Dont know of any communities of agression and fear, unless you consider it polarizing, aggressive or fearful to take precautions. I dont.

As for Senator Obama and Senator Clinton - trendy leftists with good press.

I prefer to await the announcements of State Secretary Ken Blackwell and Secretary Rice. Not leftists, not trendy andfar less likely to get good press.

Regards


GKT

One country's wacko is another country's first President.
If he is on our side he is a "Freedom Fighter". Not on our side? a "terrorist". Remember most of the British colonists opposed the revolution, or simply didn't care. James Madison warned of Factions. Factions cause a lot of trouble. They are the tail that wags the dog. Factions caused the fall of the Soviet Union too.

So, Greg, in addition to our sporterized 03s or whatever we're going to substitute for the resilient Lee-Enfield, we're going to need 1) a mountain defile, 2) anti-armour mines, 3) AA rockets for that irritating air cover, 4) demoralization of the opposition unrelated to our success in the field? I call Special Case.

jack

Greg: the Soviets in Afghanistan were demoralized, their country was unquestionably bankrupt. The mujahideen were bankrolled and armed by outside interests including, ironically, both the US and al-Qaeda. Only a few years later, our military kicked their butts quickly. Sure, the Taliban are trying to come back now, supported by opium money, but even with one hand tied behind our backs in Iraq - and in Washington - the US and our token NATO contingents are doing pretty well against them.

The role of the rifleman has changed. The "Minuteman" fantasy so popular on this board ignores the realities of modern warfare.

But if you want to fondle your ARs and imagine yourself as a hero in the war against an "anti-constitutionalist army of oppression," why that's just fine with me.

Fred Swartz's book, "Three Faces of Revolution" is a good read. As rightly pointed out, pitch-forks won't overthrow a powerful country. But, a determined enemy against a weak, or undetermined foe will win everytime. The Change of China's dynasties didn't occour at the pinacle of the dynasty, but at it's decline. Hitler who formed his own revolution lived by the motto, "If the house is rotten, kick in the door and the whole rotten house will come down.