doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Two Different Worlds

Keith, I have no doubt that the world appears black-and-white to a significant number of people, perhaps (I don't know) you are among them but it really isn't. I know many people who are fiscally conservative, socially conservative, want to balance the budget but not on the backs of the working poor and who are also pro-gun control. Many of them also want single-payer health care because that would make our economy a lot more competitive internationally. They also vote Republican whenever possible (read no santorum, no Gingrich). I know many (myself included) liberals who are very active hunters and shooters. Many of us don't understand why illegal immigration cannot be stopped and we don't like the colonization of our country. How would you classify the guy with whom I hunt the most - a former Marine, two Purple Hearts (Vietman), very Left socially and fiscally, an active Zionist who wants to bomb Iran, support Bloomberg's efforts to get guns out of NYC, wants to keep illegals out of the country?

Here's an interesting table (Table 2.8) that might challenge some of your assumptions (of course, I am assuming your assumptions! :

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/1729/H...GUN-OWNERS.html

If the entire table isn't simply a fabrication then it is reasonable to conclude there are strong social forces that support gun ownership.

And I don't need to call people with whom I disagree "stupid" - most people aren't.

The National Opinion Research Center(NORC) in Chicago is a credible organization and conducts valid research in many areas. I was one of the early users of their statistical program package(SPSS) way back in the 1970s when I worked in the Research Department of my University.
Having said that; I suspect their percentages of firearms ownership is being under reported. A respondent in Chicago,for example, would probably say NO even if they owned a handgun because even after the Supreme Court ruled McDonald vs. Chicago
that their handgun ban was unconstitutional the City has done everything possible to circumvent it.
The Police Department in Phoenix,AZ issued a report a couple of years ago stating the 60% of the cars there contained a firearm*.
They estimate that upwards of 70% of the homes** contain at least 1 firearm.
*This is probably the reason car jackings are rare here.
**Occupied home breakins are also rare here unless they are drug or gang related or both.
Jim

Gnomon, the world does not appear strictly black and white to me any more than it does to you. Since there are seldom any candidates for political office who are identical to ourselves in their thinking, we are almost always forced to compromise, unless of course, we run for office and vote for ourself. My whole beef with you is that you repeatedly attempt to portray Obama as a candidate who is not a threat to the Second Amendment. If that is not stupid, it would have to be conniving and dishonest. His record as an Illinois legislator and as a Senator is 100% anti-gun. His choices for Supreme Court nominees, Attorney General, and ATF Director are equally anti-gun. His justice departments' Amicus Curiae brief in Heller was anti-gun. His administration committed multiple felonies in Operation Fast and Furious in an attempt to paint the gun industry and gun culture in the U.S. as being responsible for gun violence in Mexico.

You apparently choose to overlook those sins when a candidate supports the failed liberal causes that you support. No matter how you slice it, the bloated budget will come at the expense of the working poor AND the working rich. The entitlement society that you liberals love has created a huge segment of folks feeding at the trough of government largess, and they do not pay their way. I have no problem with supporting the truly handicapped, but the majority of the people on the dole could and would find work if they were not addicted to free handouts. This, of course, includes poor General Electric which was a huge Obama supporter and paid no income taxes last year. Your pal Obama's disdain for anti-illegal immigrant laws such as Arizona passed does help supress wages and create competition for the unemployed who might actually wish to work. But all of this is a subject for debate in Misfires. We are talking about maintaining the right to gun ownership, a matter that affects our ability to purchase, own, and enjoy our Doublesguns as much as any other gun. So let's stay on topic...

When I go to vote, and make my inevitable compromises, I typically go with the candidate who supports and defends the Second Amendment over all else. I decided a long time ago that any candidate who is too stupid or too dishonest to understand that simple Constitutional Right is probably too stupid or dishonest to be trusted on any other position. I believe that one right is too precious to compromise, and offers us the greatest protection to maintain all of the other Constitutional rights. The simple fact that so many of us own guns (probably much higher than in the poll you provided) is a wonderful insurance policy and a great deterrant against any future tyrant or dictator's attempt to dismantle the Constitution. I'd bet that most of the citizenry in Russia, Germany, or China did not foresee that a handful of thugs could enslave and exterminate over 100 million people.

But you Gnomon, apparently don't see it that way. I'm not as smart as you profess to be, (smarter than any one of us, and probably smarter than all of us combined judging from your recent statement in another thread.)so I can't yet see how increased unemployment, 17 million more on food stamps, a doubling of gas prices, and a single payer health care system will make the U.S. more competitive. You feel those types of things are more important than gun rights. Fine. Thankfully you only have one vote, unless you are casting multiple votes under the guise of dead Democrats... another policy you surreptiously support.

But you repeatedly come here, on a Firearms Forum, and try to tell us that Obama is not a threat to our gun rights.

That is either stupid or dishonest. If you feel that telling the truth is name-calling, so be it. I'll find a way to cope.

Keith, you have a remarkable way of brewing a very rich thought stew. I can't begin to unravel and respond to so many juxtaposed arguable assumptions which you accept as true. My worldview is not a threat to you even though it is my opinion (and it's only an opinion, just as your dogmatic beliefs are really only opinions) that gun ownership in this country is alive and well, our constitution will survive the onslaught of the far-right and the sun will rise tomorrow. If Romney wins our constitution will still survive and the sun will also rise every morning; the same if Obama wins. And since we're staying on topic, my doubleguns will miss (or hit) about the same percentage of pheasants whoever wins.

And now, I'm casting votes for dead Democrats? How delightfully bizarre.

Quote:
"They also vote Republican whenever possible (read no santorum, no Gingrich)."

I have been ignoring Gnomon's posts for quite some time but decided to look at his last one. IMO: The two above along with Ron Paul were the truly mainstream Republican's in the presidental race.
I guess I could turn around and say I vote Democrat whenever possible (read no Obama, No Clinton etc.) However; I would expect to be jeered at if I was to make any such ridiculous statement.

Keith:
Has basically nailed it in his above post and anything further I was to add to it would just be repetitive. I'll just keep clinging to my guns like to rest of the dummies on this forum.
Jim
P.S: Apparently Gnomon was posting at the same time as I so I looked at that post as well. It Liberal typical in that he just belittles Keith rather than address his points. Of course he would have to come up with something factual in order to do so.

Facts:

The Kenyan has increased the National Debt by over $4 trillion dollars. The National Debt also now exceeds 100% of the nation's Gross Domestic Product, the total value of goods and services. Go ahead and stick these in with your "dogmatic beliefs".

I never said you are actually casting votes for dead Democrats. I said you surreptiously support that. Re: obama's DOJ Bars Texas Voter ID law, thread #270185, 3/12/12. Go back to that thread and re-read your posts. We know that it happens, and we know you are against any voter I.D. iniatives. Stop trying to twist my words. You never get away with it.

Interesting how MY beliefs are "dogmatic" and YOUR beliefs are a "worldview". Equally interesting how you still keep coming back here with the notion that Obama is not a threat to the Constitution (Second Amendment in particular) when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Stupid or dishonest?

+ 2 Keith, well said.....

Gnomon, a typical liberal and a New York liberal to boot, will never acknowledge facts, no matter how many you subject him to. It is called selective reading and selective understanding, also known as the "Bambi-Syndrome", FACTS are never brought into the thought process.........he just likes to come on here and create conflict without any honest comprehension of the facts, just read his previous posts.....S.O.S.

Thanks guys. I know that most all of you know what Gnomoron is trying to pull. I only respond to him because I know this site is visited by many who visit but never post. Gnomon knows that as well. That's why I'm going to ask Jim and anyone else to remove Gnomoron from his Ignore list. As much as he nauseates me, we can't afford to let him convince even one impressionable visitor to support someone who is such a clear threat to gun rights. The margins of victory are often too close to take anything for granted anymore.

Gnomoron... Stupid, or dishonest?

I'd suspect there are lots of dead democrats smarter than Gonadmon

And when all else fails, name-call.

If, as both Keith and Italian indicate, the data in the table in the link I posted are correct (or at least a good approximation) then about 25% of all gun owners are "liberals" (whatever that means).

That's a far greater percentage than I thought.

Keith, does it bother you that a quarter of gun owners don't share your political ideology?

It's too bad that "gun ownership" wasn't broken down in greater detail. Wonder what the doublegun demographics are.