doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com European Beretta-help needed

Gentlemen,
I have recently purchased a Beretta side by side shotgun that is turning out to be quite different than any I have bought or seen before. There are several features that strike me as different right away. It has factory sling swivels for one thing, next it has a short piece of top rib right in front of the breech then it dives down between the barrels as a concave rib. The gun has a hidden third fastener that consists of a round rod that extends out of the breech face after the barrels are closed. Neither the barrels nor the breach are marked in the traditional way with date coded Roman numerals but the water table is stamped 1951. This gun has a frosted looking nickle finish on the action with light border engraving. Last, it has a pistol grip on it and a button release on the bottom of the forend, a nickle plated button surrounded by a thin brass frame around it.
The barrels are proof marked with 1370Kg. I am assuming that this is per square centimeter? It is a 12 gauge and it weighs 6 pounds 8.6 ounces. It either does not reset the safety when opened or someone has removed the linkage to make it do so. The barrels measure 68.5 centimeters or 26 3/4 inches. Choke markings on the barrels are 17.7 and 17.3, I'm guessing around Improved and Modified but that is just a guess. I will take some pictures of it and get them on here later. In the meantime, I would really appreciate hearing any thoughts on the markings, the model of this gun, and what the chokes are. I'm sure it was built for the European trade and it has no importers mark on it. Thanks for your help on figuring this one out. Bob

Hello
Pictures would be most helpful, please
This one??

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=283665214

If you can show a picture of the action flats, that might help
Many of the guns are stamped with model number there, Some O/U were marked S56, S57, S58 etc.

Thanks
Mike

Bob, your gun is likely one of these:
MODEL 409 PB - 12, 16, 20, or 28 ga., 27, 28, and 30 in. barrels, various chokes, double triggers, plain extractors, checkered pistol grip stock. Mfg. 1934-1964. MODEL 410 E - higher quality, auto ejector version of 409 PB. MODEL 411 E - similar to 409 PB, with false sideplates and finer finishing. Mfg. 1934-64.
All these guns are great shooters...while I've never seen unit production statistics, the early 50's seem to be very prolific based on anecdotal observations.
This site has info on italian proof marks & may be of interest to you:
http://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/proof-marks/italy.html

Bob,

It sounds like it was meant for the Italian market, with short basrrels and sling. It is not uncommon to find Beretta's of this period stamped with the date rather than a code. I have one a few years old that is year stamped.

You are coorect about the pressure. It should work out to be about 19,454 psi.



Pete

Bob,

1370 is the weight of the barrels in Kg (a little more than 3 lbs). Each barrel will have two markings on them to determine choke. The link to the gun above shows the an 18.3 and a 17.3 on the left barrel; these are in millimeters. When you subtract them, you get 1mm or .039 inches for the choke. I've seen other early 50s SO guns that were marked with a year vice the roman numerals.

Ken

Mike,
Yes, that is the exact gun that I bought. I will try and get a picture or two of it on here soon. It has extractors. There are no model number markings that I can see on it anywhere. Thanks for putting the auction up there with the pictures on it. That will save me a bunch of work. Unfortunately, they don't show some of the more important features. Bob

Thanks Jim for all your help and answers, this will get me a step closer to figuring out what I really have. When I bought this I didn't realise it had the sunken rib on it. I guess I got in a hurry to buy it before someone else snapped it up.
As you can see from the pictures of the auction, the stock needs to be refinished and there is one dent that I will have to lift out of the barrels. Lucky for me I have a 12 gauge dent lifter. Other than those things, it seems to be in perfect working order. The fact that the safety doesn't reset itself bothers me some. I'll have to open her up and see what's going on there. Bob

Pete,
Thanks for your help and for including the SAAMI specs. I am going to copy those and keep them for later reference. I appreciate all your help. Bob

Agree with Ken. 1370 kg would be the weight, not the pressure. I don't believe any Italian shotguns made in 1951 were proofed to such high pressure. The proof pressure would be indicated by a star in a circle (or maybe a crown--the mark changed to the former in 1950) with "PSF" underneath it. There was no mark for higher proof pressures (2 stars in circles with PSF) until 1962.

A Beretta with a swamped rib is rare in this country, maybe in Europe too. Nice little gun for $500.