doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com popularity of 16 guage shotguns

Larry, what about a short chambered gun, say a svelte Husky 16, that has a sharp transition between the chamber/forcing cone vs a smoother one like a Fox has? I've never shot anything other than 2 1/2" shells in my Huskys due to this.

Mike

Larry did say "most." My Manufrance Ideal will not lock up on even 67 mm factory loads, and my 2 1/2 " reloads have to be perfect.

Happy 4th. I am simply delighted to discover how many 12, 20 and 28 fans we have on this site. That leaves more 16's for me and more 10's for j0e.

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I don't really know where the Sq load theory originated, as far as I am aware of neither Greener or Burrard mentioned it, even though it seems to most often be credited to the "British". Sonds like some BS that Thomas may have come up with.
I think the most ludicrous I ever saw on it was in the premier issue of a Shotgun rag Peterson Publishing introduced some years back. Don't recall the author now or most of the details, but was a treatise on the 28ga as a Duck gun. Great emphysis was placed on the superior patterns produced by the 28 due to its Sq Load. He subscribed to the round ball equivelent as a Sq Load. Then, Rightly, told this could be found by dividing 16 by the gauge which for the 28 resulted in .57. He then stated this "Conclusively" proved the 3/4oz load in the 28 was the "Perfect" Sq Load. Now I don't really know if he was actually that Ignorant or just though all his readers were, but I learned along time ago in elementary school math as we studied decimal fractions that .57 & .75 even though they contain the same two digits, the reverse order makes them not even close kin much less identical twins.

I have read all about square loads in 16 & 28. I have never actually done scientific performance comparison of 16 ga loads so I have to go on what is written.

I have read all about the patterning. From my experience in the field and range I believe the overwhelming number of hunters and target shooters never truly pattern their guns. Most of those who pattern their guns never go beyond shooting a few sheets of paper and call it good.

I have done some patterning comparing Nickel silver, magnum lead, and soft lead. I have compared choke tube performance on my Citori 16 and chokes in several 16s. I have shot a great many patterning board shots to compare fit. Though I have probably done more than most, I am an amateur and have only a clue. My one sure knowledge is that the variables are tremendous

The reality is most of us depend on someone elses patterning research. Some of what appears in articles in magazines and in books is well written, some not, and some horrific bull.

I do not know if square loads matter or not. They sound nice, but I think it is sound, not a magic reality. It maybe a sound based in the reality of stumbling across the relationship of barrel diameter shot charge weight resulting in proportionally good shot string length

I have no doubt shot string length does matter. Unfortunately like so many things in shotgunning while true it is only one of the many variables that have to be considered. Over emphasis on any one variable is counterproductive.

Is the shot string produced by a 16 magically better than other gauges? I doubt it is. Does the 16 with 1oz or 7/8oz perform acceptably; I have no doubt it does. A good gun and load in any gauge is just that a good gun and load.

If you like to play with mathamatics, which I do, take a long hard look at the early loads as breeech loading shotguns were developing, in particular early smokeless loads. Basically all the varieties of early smokeless had a very similar burn rate. It was not until the 1920s that progressive burn powders were introduced. One thing which will very quickly stand out is that all the gauges were loaded very near proportional to their bore "Area". This was of course based on the burn rate of the powder. Taking the 1 1/8oz 12ga as a standard proportionate loads in 16ga would be 15/16oz, 20ga = 13/16oz & 10ga = 1�oz. These loads would all have very near the same "Length" of shot column in their respective bores. It is of course worth noting, though never seeming to be the size the Sq Load theory is applied to, The 10 is very close to the Sq Load while the smaller ones all have a longer column than their bore dias.
I think that Joe may well have a point that a lot of this dates back to MLing days when the majority of guns were in the 14-10 ga range & a rule of thumb was to load powder, wadding & shot all to have a length equal to the dia of the bore. This did not apply even then to the smaller sizes. Note that the burn rate of the powder is to a large extent based upon the weight of shot it has to propel in relation to the area of the wad it has to push against. This area is basically proportional to the Square of the dia of the bore.
In my opinion a SQ load is purely co-incidental & means a Big Fat ZIP. I don't believe any knowledgable person can deny the 12ga 1 1/8 oz load has proven to be highly successful & very versatile load, yet is neither a Sq Load or a Round Ball equivelent, so according to some would be mostly useless.

Talk about loading a length of shot/powder equal to the bore diameter - go look at one of the old adjustable powder/shot dippers. Mine is calibrated for fractional ounces of lead shot, and drams (equiv) of powder. The same volumes used for both powder and shot. (v = a*h)

E.g., http://www.bacyksportingcollectibles.com/parkerdipper1.jpg

Just saying.

I have fired a few "unsquare loads", think 3" 20 gauge, and can report that the results, with lead shot, are mostly underwelming. The same loads, in steel, seem to perk up a bit on the pattern board, but, I always lose interest, and start shooting a 12 at that point.
I inherited a bunch of heavy loads for 12 gauge, a lot of it pretty much useless for me (3" lead 4s, 3 1/2" anythings) but, the 1 1/4 oz loads of 5s and 6s sure flatten pheasants. Funny what getting ammunition for free does to one's opinion of it.
Not that I'd buy anymore of it....


Best,
Ted

Dave;
If you study those old powder & shot dippers, you will note an error in their markings. "Most" though not all, have the same setting for various amounts of shot & poeder. shot is normally marked in 1/8oz increments & powder in � dram increments. At the 1oz setting for shot the powder normally reads 2� drams. This is pretty accurate, however if it goes far enough to double the capacity (I have one which does) to 2 oz, the logically the powder should also double to 5 drams, but recall it has gone up by 8 �dram increments so arrives at 4� drams instead. Each change of volumn equal to 1/8oz of shot actually changes the powder charge by about 5/16 drams, but most measure are not so marked. I do have a little Lyman dipperich does not have the preset notches, but is simply set to a line by friction. Shot markings are on one side & powder on the other. The lines do not co-inside as the do on the majority of these dippers, so would seem to give a more accurate reading of the actual powder drams. Most that I have checked seem to be pretty close on the amout of shot dipped. By simply using the same setting for dipping Black the charge will be a good one, though may not be just what the measure says it is.
Ted; As best as I can recall I can't think of a single game bird or animal which I have ever killed with a Square Load. I have simply never hunted with any of the following, .410 = 3/16oz, 28ga = 9/16oz, 20ga = 5/8oz, 16ga = 13/16oz, 1ga = 1 1/16oz or a 10ga with 1�oz. With only minimum rounding those are esentially the Sq loads for the different gauges.
Much more important is a load balanced to the size of the bore, in relation to the desired shot charge & burning rate of the powder. This can of course be done for any conceivable size of hole down the bbl within the range available burning rates of powder at hand. Irregardles of the gauge one should load a lighter charge for Red Dot than for Blue Dot etc.

PS; I suppose you are aware that if you put a 1 5/8oz load of shot in a 20ga it would have a shorter shot column than 3/4oz in a .410. The normal 1�oz load for the 3" 20 is only very slightly longer than the �oz .410 load. Ever wonder why the .410 is normally loaded with rifle powder rather than shotgun powder?

Give me a 6lb 3-4 oz SXS 16 gauge with 29" - 30" barrels....... not practical? I guess then I don't want to be practical.
Any thing that needs more I use a single barrel with a magazine and shoot 3 1/2" roman candles.