doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help with Gun Identification

Can anybody on here help me? I have come across this website in my quest to ID a double barrel rifle that I have recently purchased. There are absolutley no markings on the outside of the gun. It has all kinds if belgium proof marks on the inside of the gun, and I think is to be a 10.1 mm (stamped on the under the forestock). Now for the real kicker...I cant seem to figure out how to post any pictures to this forum. If somebody sends me an email I can get the pictures to you, or if somebody gives me step by step instructions on how to post pictures I can try this.
Thanks in advance.

Here is the FAQ on posting photos:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

Here are the Belgian proof marks:
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Pete

Thanks for the help, I have looked through the proofmarks, and understand what they are. I really want to know who built the gun, and any other info on it.

Could it be B. Blindee that built it? Not sure if in Liege, Belgium that is the maker or the "proofer's" mark on the barrel flats.

Overall, the gun looks very nice too, I might add. Something looks a little off regarding that case coloring but I'm no expert on the Belgian aesthetic for color case hardening.

Have you figured out what caliber it shoots based on a chamber cast? Have you regulated and shot it yet?

You need a guy named Raimey (UserID ellenbr) to take a look at this. He's a genius when it comes to identifying unmarked European guns and assigning them to their true makers.

B. Blindee is the Belgian proof mark that ok's the rifled barrel for use with jacketed bullets. The Crown over R designates a rifled barrel.

You have not posted all the marks, so it is impossible to give a time frame, caliber or possible maker.

It is Belgian. It is rifled. It is nitro proofed.

Pete

Can we see more of the Proof Marks on the barrel flats please? I can at least say that it was Proofed at Liege in Belgium for nitro and has the rifled arms mark but you are probably aware of that much already. It looks as if the 'case colours' may have been added by a blow torch by someone. No lasting damage but dosn't look right somehow. Interesting gun none the less. Lagopus.....

Sorry Pete, I seem to have been typing at the same time as you and answering/asking the same questions. Lagopus.....

No big deal. Glad you mentioned the torch job

Pete

The other proof marks that are on the other side are exactly the same on both sides. And there are absolutely no marks on the outside of the gun. I have not done a chamber cast, I believe that the caliber is the 10.1 that is stamped on it, but not sure, the widower I bought it from handed me the gun from behind the closet door, and it had two .45-70 snap caps in it, so that throws another monkey wrench in the mix, but check the pictures out, it isnt your average .45-70 shells, all the shells I have seen are not stepped down like these. These have been modified to some sort. I also know the Proofer (the V with a star above it) was Macon Isidor, that worked from 1929-1953.

There's so many different 10mm's That I'd recommend a chamber cast. If you can't do it yourself just about any gunsmith can do it for you. What is the condition of the interior of the barrels and does the gun lock up properly?
Jim

The gun locks up beautifully, the barrels are very dirty though

This gun is missing all sorts of marks. But that is no surprise. The date mark indicates 1943. The Belgian guns I have seen from during the war, often are missing marks.

A chamber cast will help a lot. You can use wax or cerosafe.

Pete

Which marking is the date mark? I was unable to identify that.

There's a maker's mark just forward of the flats and adjacent to the 6 of the serial number on the water table. Can't make it out for the moment.

Rookhawk, thanks for the vote of confidence but genius is a bit strong.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The mark of a D in a rhombus looks to be common forward on the flats as well as on the water table.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Plug the barrels up at one end and pour some of your favorite bore cleaner in,slosh it around and let it sit overnite. Scrub them out and see what they look like. As long as the priming wasn't corrosive they hopefully will be fine.
BTW: Is that one of the cartridges for this gun in your picture showing a closeup of the rear sight?
Jim

Yes that is one of the 45-70 snap caps that were in the chambers when i got the gun.

gzeck,
The 10.1 is the bore diameter.The nominal caliber is likely to be somewhere around 10.3-10.75mm. The fact that a 45-70 case was used to make snapcaps indicates that the case is in the 43 Mauser(11.15x60R)family.This is reinforced by the impression that the rim recess seems to be deep enough to accept the so called "A" base or"MB".When 43 Mauser cases were not avaliable,45-70 or 45-90 cases were used by turning the rim and necking the case to headspace on the shoulder,instead of the rim.To determine the nominal caliber, case length,and bullet diameter(groove diameter of the barrel)should be determined. The bullet in the snapcap may or may not be che correct dia.This should be confirmed by "slugging" the bore.Case length should be determined by a chamber cast. The snapcap may or may not be the correct length.If it has been trimmed shorter than 45-70, it may be correct. If it is 45-70 length,then the length should be confirmed. There is "no doubt in my military mind" that useable ammo can be made for this rifle.
Mike

Donckier rolled out some 10.75X52Rs:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20den/a%20donckier%20marcel%20gb.htm

Can you give us some dims on the cartridge you show or does that even fit? The side-frame reinforcement on the subject DR might help to narrow the field.

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

Check with the woman you got it from if by chance he had any boxes of unfirec ammo around you could look at. You might get lucky and he has some round for it. Note if you do this does not negate the need to chamber cast to verify that the cartridge you find is the right one.

I don't think rookhawk is too far off the mark when it come to some of the identifying work you do, Raimey. You are one of the people that makes this site so fascinating and rewarding, as well as informative.

Note, the Donckier was marked 10.4 for the 10.75x52R. The rifle in this thread is marked 10.1. Still need dimensions.45-70 case is close to 52mm long.
Mike

if possible i would ask if there may be a set of dies at the place of purchase????

Come on The American, what's a couple of decimal mm for windage? You are on the correct track, of course.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The D in a rhombus was the mark of Henri Dumoulin and Son.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

Regarding the date, actually I used the Controller of Proof, Star over V, Isidor Ma�on (1929-1953). I am guessing that it done during the war by the lack of certain proof marks.

Pete

So do you believe that Dumoulin is the actual gun maker?
I did a quick google search on this name and came up with this website, do you believe this could be the same company, I will try to contact them to get some more info if it is available.

www.dumoulin-herstal.com

Although with Falla tube effort(most upper rung), this one is similar:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...34b4793b5d7fcf4














Subject DR


405 Win DR


Subject DR


What is the other stamp forward on the tubes near the lower rib?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Subject DR



405 Win Frame

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The serialization is that of the mechanic with the D in a rhombus. So it was either left in the white & finished during WWII or prior to #6860. The controller *V begins in 1929 while the *P is post WWII. Any chance either controller could have applied his stamp earlier?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Note the 405 is also marked 10.1 as bore dia. The nominal caliber of the DR in this thread is not 405 Win. however,a 45-70 case wouldn't come close to chambering in 405.Bullet dia is likely to be around .412, based on this.450-400 2 3/8" is a possibility,but 450 case is a good bit larger than 45-70. We still need dimensions.
Mike

Peter, was looking for something else and noticed the D in a rhombus just forward of the flats on this tubeset:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse